Denon DVD-9000 Now Available (2 Viewers)

[Lee Scoggins]

Don,
I am very intrigued by your knowledge in this area.
What are the best DVD players in terms of video performance in your mind?
Thanks for your help.
Lee

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

"Blind brand loyalty never ceases to amaze me."
Shane, that is a very intellectual way to jump into an educational conversation...as I'm sure you are talking to me. Denon has been good to me and obviously I have a LOT to learn about video...but again, in some circumstances "Ignorance is bliss."
Don,
Thank you for your rant. I am starting to understand the problems associated with the "chroma bug." It's much better to have an educated answer than folks that have never seen specific players take what others have typed on forums and "guess" what the performance of that said unit is like. And then to call it "brand loyalty"
A question for you.
If the chroma upsampling error is a design flaw...Why did Denon release this player? The 9000 is very expensive and probably reserved for the true, high-end hobbyist. This level, people are definitely going to notice the issue. Why would they release a $3k+ unit with an issue that is this BAD?
Jeremy

 

[Phil Nichols]

Don,

"- twinkling (from maybe non-linear Y/C amplitude enhancement set too high or designed poorly in players that have this)" is what you saw in the Faroudja booth at CES when they were driving a FPTV with a Kenwood DV-5700 with the FLI2220 enhancer probably at it's (too high) default setting of eight (8).

Some Pioneer DVD players and Elite RPTV's have a Service Mode adjustable parameter called "Detail" that Stacey (and myself) think may be some sort of non-linear chrominance (and maybe luminance also, in combination) tweak similar to what Faroudja does in their stand-alone video processors and in the FLI2220. Having this too high is my definition above of "twinkling". I'm not sure it's known at this time exactly how this shows up using AVIA.

Video noise is what I see in movies occasionally as "mysterious" ultra-small white flicks in dark backgrounds. Wouldn't/doesn't DVD player analog video channel design (isolation, grounding, etc.) inject some of this into the image?

 

[StaceyS]

Video noise is what I see in movies occasionally as "mysterious" ultra-small white flicks in dark backgrounds.

Not really a problem with DVD. You have watched too much VHS!
Neither Don nor myself really like detail enhancement. We turn it off in the Faroudja based products. This shows up as preshoot and overshoot on Avia.
The problem with trying to use a film DVD as reference is you have no reference for what it should really look like. You don't know if the artifact on screen is caused by the player or is part of the disc.
Lee, if you want a good DVD-V player today, the RP56 is a good deal. I suspect some good news from either Cedia or CES from someone in particular, but that is for them to announce, not me.

 

[Don Munsil]

Lee,

Some of the best I've seen in overall progressive performance include:

- Camelot Roundtable

- EAD Theatervision P

- Panasonic RP-56

- Kenwood 5700

- Philips Q50 (with the latest firmware)

There are others, this is just off the top of my head. And I'm not saying they're all equivalent, just that they're ones I'd recommend to a friend. The Denon 1600 also looks like a good choice, but I haven't personally seen it.

Jeremy,

As to why they are shipping this player with the bug, that's a question for Denon. Probably they already had the design ready to go with this particular MPEG chip. Perhaps the chip manufacturer told them they'd fix it, but didn't get the job done. Once a player manufacturer chooses a chip and a reference design, it's very difficult to switch to a new vendor. The chip vendor is ESS, who also made the chips for Denon's other in-house-designed players, so Denon has invested time and energy in learning their way of doing things.

Phil,

OK, I know what you're talking about with the twinkling. That's a very specific artifact of Faroudja's enhancer chip.

The noise you're seeing in black backgrounds could be video noise from the analog stage, or it could be quantization errors in the MPEG chip, or it could be in the transfer, and just more or less visible depending on other settings. How do you find out? Test equipment and test patterns, and isolation of single issues.

Don

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

It seems like you guys should be getting paid for your knowledge...some of these bigger companies could use your level of knowledge, maybe save them some embarassment
Thanks Don and Stacy, much appreciated.
Jeremy

 

[KeithH]

Jeremy, you may not view everyone here as an "expert", but the opinions of the Denon DVD-9000 being unacceptable due to the fact that it has the chroma upsampling error at $3000+ are equally valid regardless of the people offering them. It doesn't take an "expert" to know that Denon slipped up and did it on a grand scale. It was bad enough when Denon didn't deliver with the DVD-2800 at $800. Now at $3000+, Denon still hasn't gotten it right.

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

Keith,

Unfortunately, I have no argument for you. I suppose my view of the chroma bug was that it was/is an insignificant problem and one that doesn't bother most people. I'm not alone but I am also very uneducated when it comes to the video end of things.

I've spent 15 years in radio and enjoy many types of music. Audio is my foundation of this hobby. I am always ready to learn more, especially when it comes to the video end of things. Regardless of the experts' opinion (which in this tread, I consider Stacy and Don) on the scope of the "chroma issue," I have never noticed it. And apparently, I own one of the worst offenders of the bug. Notice, though, that I have not asked...nor will I ever, "how to find or see the chroma bug." I love to know all of the nuances of audio, but when it comes to the video and all the imperfections of digital video...the longer it takes me to learn about them, the better.

Especially til I get a "chroma bug" free player.

BTW, I agree with you that Denon has made a mistake and I've asked the experts' opinion on why they would release this player based on the knowledge we have. Entering in to this thread...I didn't believe that the fix was that easy or necessary. There are some folks that like to chime in every once in a while that are anti-Denon or anti-Sony or anti-SVS for that matter...without the experiences to back up their comments or observations. Don and Stacy have taken the time to validate that the Chroma Bug is a concern and maybe not something that just shows up at Chapter 4, and 17 seconds into Toy Story on Woody's Hat. I think that is why we are all here...to learn a bit more.

I know that I learned from this thread that the chroma bug is a bad thing to have...and that I don't want to know what it looks like until I have a different player.

Jeremy

Especially til I get a "chroma bug" free player.

 

[Rob_b]

FYI - Someone has posted an opinion(Review)on audioreview.com

They seem to like it besides that issues everyone is talking about.

 

[KeithH]

Jeremy, fair enough.
You said:

Audio is my foundation of this hobby.

Same here. I am still learning the video side of this hobby, as it is not my main focus. All I know is that if picture quality were my primary interest, you can better believe that I would spend $200 for the Panasonic DVD-RP56 than $3000+ for the Denon DVD-9000.
I have been toying with the idea of getting the Denon DVD-3800 for around $1200 for the DVD-Audio capabilities. It would replace a Technics DVD-A10. I probably would use the '3800 sparingly for movies, but I can't see dropping $1200 for a component with a video flaw that should have been fixed by now. It's not $1200 by virtue of being a first-generation player, where flaws are almost expected. It's $1200 because it is supposed to be a high-end fourth- or fifth-generation player (whatever). With the chroma bug, it doesn't live up to that reasonable expectation. So, I doubt I will get the '3800. If Denon comes up with a real fix for the chroma bug, then perhaps I will get one. Until then, I will sit this one out.

 

[EricMitz]

Gentlemen,
I've been kicking around the idea of maybe a used CAL-2500, Meridian 596 or Theta DaViD mated with a iscan v2 or v3. I would think this would be great on my 61" Sony. This combo would put me in at my budget and provide me with terrific interlaced performance for my future needs. Comments? (please, oh God please let these players be free of the Chroma bug... )

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

Me too. I was pretty excited to take advantage of the DenonLink on my upgraded 5800. I don't know that I would've EVER spent the money though...$3k is too rich for my blood.

Regardless...When my 2800 dies, I will ask the question on how to spot the bug and which units available do not have the infection.

Jeremy

 

[James D S]

If only everyone were so open to learning. - Don Munsil

I thought that deserved to be restated.

Seems when Denon is involved (I own a 5700, love it) in a DVD thread, this topic (chroma upsampling error) always comes up, and fanatics will eventually downplay the importance of accurate video when deciding to overpay for one of Denon's recent offerings. Sad really.

Don made the statement that some (most) "professional" reviewers have no business doing video player reviews, I wonder if it can be said that some companies have no business doing player production.

Don, Stacey (and John) - You guys are invaluable. And as someone who speaks for all those who think that ignorance sucks donkey balls, we thank you.

 

[StaceyS]

Eric, the Cal does not have the bug. however, it also has no support behind it. The 596 and Theta both have the bug. The 596 can be upgraded as soon as C-Cube (LSI) fixes it in the Ziva 3 chip. If they don't fix it in Ziva3, then you will have to wait for Meridian to implement the Ziva5. This still makes the player upgradable, but time is unknown. Theta is built on a Pioneer transport so you probably have to buy a new unit. (David III) Or they will have to simply replace all of the guts on the inside. I don't know their plans.

 

[EricMitz]

Stacey:

I noticed that CAL had taken all references to them having ever made a DVD player off of their web-site... what gives? That is definitely not an option if they are not going to support it. Geesh...

 

[StaceyS]

I don't even think they sale it anymore. They lost a lot of their engineers a while back.

 

[Elbert Lee]

perhaps the next gen Parason HALO dvd player will be the true next gen "savior"....

Elbert

 

[John Kotches]

If memory serves me correctly, that bad boy lists for US$5K -- which is on the pricey side ;-)

Regards,

 

[Geo]

Hi,

Just received my 9000 this evening. Won't have time to set it up this evening but will first thing tomorrow morning.

I did unpack it, plugged it in and loaded a few DVDs that my RP91 doesn't play, Boz Scaggs - DIG, Queen DTS - Night at the Opera DTS96/24, a couple of CD/R & CD/RWs, etc.... They all appeared to load normally, whew.....big relief!

This thing is built, big time. Lifting it out of it's box is like lifting an amp. It's packed extremely well, better than most I've encountered. Rear panel connections are very heavy duty. Front panel is smooth and elegant looking. Remote has an amazing range (greater than 15') and you don't need to point it directly at the unit.

Anyway I'll post more tomorrow when I've had time to play with it for real..................

geo

 

[KeithH]

Geo, your 'RP91 doesn't play the Queen A Night at the Opera DVD-Audio disc? I have not heard of this disc giving anyone problems. It plays fine on my Technics DVD-A10.