Denon DVD-9000 Now Available (1 Viewer)

[KeithH]

Matthew, have you used the '9000? If so, what in particular makes it such a disappointment? Is it the chroma bug? Something else?

 

[EricMitz]

EricK Wrote:

Me thinks if you are going for a Denon 9000 and don't need dvd-audio or denon link, why not get the 2800mkII? Same chips? Denon 3800?

You are so dead wrong about this one!
Video DACs:
9000 - Six 14-bit/108 Analog Devices (like the Ayre)
3800 - Four 12-bit/108 Analog Devices
24/192 Audio Dacs:
9000 - Burr Brown 1704 - Best Made Period!
3800 - Burr Borwn 1738
Interlaced Oversampling
9000 - 8X
3800 - 4X
9000 offers Noise Shaped Video processing on interlaced as well as progressive. 3800 only on Progressive. NSV lowers the noise floor substantially -- check out the white paper on the Denon web-site.
The 9000 also has coax/optical in becuase it's world class DACs you can use it as an outboard DAC for a CD transport/changer. I stipulated earlier that I don't care about SACD or DVD-A. I am very concerned with redbook performance however.

 

[Geo]

I will also be very interested in how the 9000 performs as a redbook CD player.

"Chroma Bug" is such a buzz word, a lot of people like to throw out there, that has so little to do with a players video performance that it's just getting silly.

Starting Tuesday I will be comparing the 9000's video performance directly against my RP91.

geo

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

Guys, I have to agree with Geo and EricMitz here. I have owned the Denon 2800 for 14 months now. I own nearly 400 DVDs and a Mitsubishi 65" RPTV. I have NEVER seen the Chroma bug...never. Call it "Ignorance is bliss." I have looked for the bug in deep reds and never spotted it. I just quit looking...as for "overly soft picture?" Bullshit! The 2800 looks phenomenal. The sound for Redbook playback is stellar. I use the DACs from my 5800 for playback, but the performance of the 2800 musically is genius. I will be doing a side by side this weekend with a Rega and a Wadia CD player...I have yet to hear anything better in my system. Several dedicated CD players have equalled the ability of my 2800, but none have surpassed it yet, IMO.

I have had several DVD players in my system as well. The Sony 9000ES, the Panny RP-91 and 56, the Toshiba 5109 and 9200, and a couple of Mitsubishis. The 2800 is as good picure-wise as the rest, and better than most. The buffering system is something I could never do without after living layer-changeless for a year.

Every DVD player has it's faults. The latest DVD shootout highlights the negatives of both the RP-91 and the 2800. In straight-on benchmark tests, the 2800 is quite a bit healthier than the 91....however, we are not benchmarking our DVD players (unless we are calibrating them) we are watching movies...plain and simple. Now if the only movie in your collection is Toy Story, maybe the Denon players aren't for you. If you have a massive non-anamorphic collection, maybe you should look at the scaling abilities of the RP-91. But if you are into watching movies and not constantly looking for imperfections, the Denon players are going to suit you just fine. I am no videophile, nor do I EVER aspire to be one as long as DVD is our format de jour. Because "NEWSFLASH" DVD is an imperfect format. It is not film, it is digital. When the transfer takes place, there are going to be imperfections. The player with the best construction will overcome those imperfections...whether it be de-interlacing or 3:2 pulldown...contast or brightness, blacks and whites.

With the ability to transfer your data over a single wire, buffering systems, state of the art Video DACs and audio DACs, bass management with multi-channel music, etc. The 9000 IS NOT a player to dismiss because of the "chroma myth"

Jeremy

 

[Spero D]

For the time being I have put the Denon A1 (aka 9000) on the back burner until the Chroma bug has been solved on the 9000 player by Denon. I to can't justify paying $7999 Australian aka ($3500 US approx) for a DVD player which has-

1) Chroma Bug.

2) No MultiChannel SACD Playback. (Sony missed an opportunity here) Since this didn't pan out the price point IMO is set to high. $2000 RRP would be more appropriate.

3) Can't pass ALL DVD-Audio over their new digital link so you will have to still use the 5.1 outputs as well.

4) No PAL Progressive (Sony has announced that their new European ES Flagship DVD Player (9000 replacement) will have PAL Progressive onboard. Though depending on if a hack comes out via Denon for the new A1 this may not be a issue.)

For those whom still want to get the Denon 9000 DVD player let us know how you go however currently for me I'll wait on Denon.

Spero D.

 

[KeithH]

Geo, if you do get to compare the 'RP91 and '9000, do let us know the results.

 

[Andrew P]

Eric:

You have to get your mind off the spec sheets. Last year when the Denon 2800 was released with was the holy grail of dvd players. In use the chroma bug was very noticeable-one of the worst offenders and the picture quality was very soft because the 2800 rolled off. I know Jeremy loves his player, but he has never met a Denon product that he hasnt liked. (Sorry Jeremy, but I know how you love Denon-I do as well just not their DVD players).

I have no biases in any player that you purchase. I have owned the 2800, RP-91, RP-56, Sony 9000ES and the RP-91 produces the best overall picture. Each player has strenghts though and it depends upon what you can live with. The Sony 9000 (I dont read Perfect Vision), but it has the chroma bug, decent de-interlacing-id say equal to the RP-91, and it also has a ringing issue that you may or may not notice. The RP-91 does not have ringing. Also, if the chroma bug does not factor into your equation you maye want to buy the $199 RP-56 because this player has the best de-interlacing and then you can spend the money you saved $2,800 on a good cd player since this is important to you. Also look at the Kenwoods 5700 and 5900 because they have the best de-interlacing and a solid overall picture-in my opinion just a hair below the RP-91. You may also want to consider a HTPC as another option.

Andy

 

[EricMitz]

Quote:

No thanks! The last place I want Winblows is near my HT. Now I may take a look at some of the HTPC variants like that from PSI video.





Look, I am not a Denon schill. In fact, I've never owned a piece of Denon gear. But I found it both annoying and ridiculous that people would dismiss the 9000 (or any player) without ever seeing or hearing it becuase it has a "chroma" problem. How silly...

 

[Andrew P]

FYI: money does not always equate to performance. You do have more options that most people, but you also have the option of wasting more money than most people do. I have viewed the 2800 then and now and I am still thoroughly unimpressed with its picture. It is overly soft and the chroma bug is there although not as severe. You should compare the players to others, but it seems you have an inherent bias in that more money equals better performance (take the Denon 5000 which could be their most disappointing player ever including the 2800.)

I think the differences between the Silicon Image and Faroudja are slim unless you have a trained eye. Im sure you have viewed these players like I have right? I have seen the SI in action with the Denon 2800 and the Faroudja with the RP-56, Philips Q50, Kenwood 5700 and 5900. Once again you may be surprised that the de-interlacing is top notch on all of those players.

I would also love to hear your opinions if you had a blind test of all the players we have mentioned. Once again you may be very surprised in what you see unless you have a trained eye. But im done with this thread because I don’t care to make it a money issue. One last note, I don’t love Best Buy, but just because Best Buy sells something doesn’t make it a non worthwhile purchase. Im all about providing the best information so someone can make an informed decision that they done regret.

Andy

 

[EricMitz]

Im all about providing the best information so someone can make an informed decision that they done regret.

I'm glad you feel that you are the arbiter of the "best" information. I for one am not so presumptuous -- about these issues or the quality of a player I haven't even laid eyes on yet.

 

[Andrew P]

You do yourself a great disservice each time you post a message like this. Once again, I just want to try and give information to others who need it. My opinion is not the end all, but I believe I have very good knowledge of dvd players. I don’t want to get into my home theater is better than yours argument, because I don’t work on that level. I do not want people to know what my system is because it can present bias, but I will be glad to give you a piece by piece if this will help to validate my opinions.



You complain about Best Buy and Circuit City type stores yet you currently own a Sony 61HS10. Ohh the irony...

 

[StaceyS]

"Chroma Bug" is such a buzz word, a lot of people like to throw out there, that has so little to do with a players video performance that it's just getting silly.

Is has EVERYTHING to do with a players video performance. Where do you get your information? Oh, you are making it up, that is clear!

Printed magazine reviews of DVD players are worthless. The majority of the reviewers do not know squat about video. The words they write are pure fiction! They are supposed to be critical viewers and they talk about color being better on one player over another. This is pure crap! It is operator, or in their case, reviewer error. Simply re-adjusting color with remove the color difference between players.

If you watch black and white movies, then the chroma bug is a not a problem. If you want a reference player, you have to start with one that can uncompress the video properly first.

Having had the Denon 9000 for almost four weeks now, (I got one of the first two from Japan, prior to them shipping.) I can tell you that the chroma bug is pretty much the same severity as the 2800.

 

[StaceyS]

A gentleman incorrectly identified the 9000, 3800, and 2800mkII as having identical chip sets.

Actually they are all using the same MPEG decoder and the same deinterlacing engine. The video encoder is different, but so far the 14-bit DAC (ADV7304) does not look any better than the 11-bit DAC (ADV7196a)in another player I have. This is both the area of noise levels and edge transitions (or ringing) The freq response and edge transition are both better on the player with the 7196. Analog filters are very important in the design and the player with the 7196 has better filtering.

 

[StaceyS]

I rely, as most people with my budget, on TPV and others to help me separate the wheat from the chaff.

The only person you can trust is yourself. It does not matter what anyone else says.

I am guessing you will be happy with an Apex since the chroma bug does not bother you.

 

[Phil Nichols]

Eric,

I'm with you 97% on the 9000's specs and features: I've read the NSV white paper and it's dead-on regarding use of over-sampling, sigma-delta video DAC technology, etc. to move inherent D/A conversion process video noise up past the 6.75MHz DVD video bandwidth limit. Outstanding pristine noiseless video on large HT screens SHOULD be the result if Denon design engineers did what the white paper says theoretcally can be done.

What I'm not with you on 3% is the 9000's chroma upsampling design error (I don't legitmize it by calling it merely a bug) whether or not you can see it in your system. Shouldn't be there at this price point - if for no other reason than just so you feel good about your purchase being perfection when you go to sleep at night.

By the way even though you don't care, the Ayre D-1 had/has the chroma upsampling design error up until they added their own circuit to take it out - got this in person from the/a D-1 designer himself.

If you're willing to spend 9000-type money, why don't you consider the EAD DVDMaster 8000 Pro with the Faroudja option? This option employs BOTH Sage/Faroudja IC's (just like the lower cost Sovereign DV-5700) - their FLI2200 deinterlacer and their FLI2220 video enhancer - and with these two circuits in combination you get a lot of the great Faroudja patents also implemented in their 3000/4000/5000 stand-alone video processors. I don't know

about the 8000's audio or it's chroma upsampling design error status, however.

.......Or you could go for broke (still less than a usefully configured Ayre D-1 though) and pick up the Krell STANDARD DVD player which also uses both Sage/Faroudja IC's.

I like your style of looking at specs on a DVD player before you buy instead of as an after-thought. I personally feel that trying out a DVD player is the LAST thing you do before you buy, not the first. Narrow the field way down first by studying specs and reading what other try-outers say, then and only then do you pick the most likely DVD player candidate to soak up your time and money on by trying at home - hopefully not disappointed at this point so there is no need to return it!

(I've been 2 years looking for just the right DVD progressive player at under $2K and haven't found one.)

 

[Elbert Lee]

There are definite truths to all opinions on build, chipsets, deinterlacing chips, and MPEG decoders. Some are willing to pay more for more expensive components because of the use of traditionally more expensive parts and craftsmanship: anti-vibration copper plated chasis, virtual battery power supplies, etc...

However, there is truth in the fact that the newest and and "high spec" electronics may fall short of expectations. I don't pretend to know everything on this topic, but I do know that IMPLEMENTATION is key. I agree that the 2800 definitely falls short of my expectations: I compared it to a Panasonic 1000 (same video as RP91) and the 2800 chroma upsampling bug was noticable. However, its deinterlacing was better. For film, the bug was more of a distraction. HOwver, for those don't mind the bug as much, I would say that it's really subjective in this area of performance.

In the digital age, no dvd player or pre/pro has been proven to perform CONSISTENTLY across the board when using particular electronics. I think it's generally agreed that pre/pros and receivers that use the same DACS will still produce aberations in the sound. But at least there's a certain amount of certainty in sound upgrades based on universal design prinicals, parts, and build that will go toward improving the overall transparency of the pre/pro. DVD video seems to be more complex and there doesn't seem to be any set precendence and established forumulas on maximizing the potential of each chipset. At this point in DVD technology, a better transport, mounds of copper isolation, higher grade transistors and power supplies can only go so far when it comes to producting a better picture. Implementation is key and, ufortunately, nobody has been able to nail down the perfect formula.

Elbert

 

[Don Munsil]

It is completely impossible for a player to be reference quality if it has the chroma bug. If the MPEG decoder isn't creating the picture accurately in the first place, it doesn't matter how heavy the case is, how much "platter damping," 14-bit DACs, etc. The picture is just wrong, and wrong in ways that are clearly visible.

In our testing, we have found very little correlation between "build quality" and video quality. Certainly the very cheapest players tend to have mediocre video quality, but there are excellent players that are lightweight, and terrible players that weigh a ton. When you open up one of these heavy players, you often find video components that are identical to lower-priced, flimsier players, and a whole bunch of heavy metal.

Personally, I want a player with the very best components and electronic design, not a doorstop.

Similarly, there is very little correlation between price and video quality, above a certain point. The Panasonic RP-56, for example, is a much better player than many very expensive boutique-line players. And the JVC players, which are not expensive, have excellent video output stages, and do a superb job with film materials. If they had better deinterlacing, they'd be among the best progressive players out there. On the other hand, the Pioneer DV-09 and DV-05, both expensive, THX-certified players, are not good players at all. Buying DVD players by price is not really a great strategy.

Don

 

[BeatCrazy]

Ok,

Call me "late in the game", but I thought Denon made specific references in the product sheets for the DVD9000/3800/2800mkII that the used a new MPEG decoder to eliminate the chroma bug. What gives?

 

[Robert A. Willis Jr.]

Stacy,

Why do you have to be such a tease? Can you tell us anything more about your observations or are you doing a review and can't say more?

Sorry, guys but money often does play a factor in Audio/Video equipment. Certain companies (not all) charge more and give you more. I found this out a long time ago the hard way. There is still a good deal of variablity in DVD players as the Secrets test seem to indicate (as I read them). Better parts cost more money. BUT the genius or "touch" of an excellent integrator of parts is perhaps the most important factor.

I've been around hardware and software all of my working life and sometimes it takes magic to produce the product that stands above the rest. Call it magic, art or finesse but it certainly exists in some people and it does make a difference.

When I finally get to listen then watch the Denon is when I'll have an opinion.

 

[StaceyS]

Robert, I have opted not to do a review on the 9000. It is instead being done by one of our new writers. Don and I will include it in a future shootout, if there is one, but for now someone else will review it.

The reason for this is that it is a combo package of 5803 and 9000. I don't have time to look at both. He will spend four weeks using both and then write the review. I suspect the review will be posted in June.

I will say the 9000 is fast as hell. I think it goes to the next menu or chapter just before I push the button. Using this player really shows how slow some others are. It is heavy. You also get the choice of using the flags or letting the Silicon Image analyze the cadence. I think this was a smart move and I hope that all players offer this in the future. It also has the best YPbPr channel timing that I have seen yet. It really makes a difference on screen as the edge transitions are so clean.

yes, the NVS sounds good on "paper."