Denon DVD-9000 ($3,500 DVD player) (1 Viewer)

[Chris S]

Forbes.com has a short article on Denon's new DVD-9000 dvd player. See here. Nothing really new that wasn't already mentioned at CES, but for $3500.00 I would really hope that it comes with a better remote than the one pictured.
Chris S.

 

[KeithH]

Chris, that remote most definitely sucks rocks. A $3500 player certainly should come with a better remote. Hopefully the picture is only of a prototype. I am also disappointed that at $3500, the '9000 won't play SACDs.

 

[Michael Lee]

I am also disappointed that at $3500, the '9000 won't play SACDs.

A big minus for me also! I got to see this player in action at CES in January. It looked great but it was hard to analyze it closely.

 

[KeithH]

Michael, I'm sure the '9000 will be a very nice player, but it just costs too much in my opinion seeing that it lacks SACD. As a result, I will be eager to see the '3800 when it comes out.

 

[Chip E]

I'm curious about the Denon 9K too.. I won't pay anything close to $3500.00 for it. I wonder how long that price will hold? The kicker is, the 5803 i have ordered as of now is crying for the 9000! Probably the 3800 though :frowning: Lol..

 

[Phil Nichols]

Chip,

Have you noticed that the 3800 will not offer Denon LINK to the 5803, only the 9000 will?

I'm wondering what advantage the 9000-5803 combo with Denon LINK buys you? I know Denon LINK will get you digital DVD-A between the two units, but what else?

(Of course the 9000 offers better Burr Brown DAC's than the 3800 and the 9000 has those superb 14 bit video DAC's!)

 

[Elbert Lee]

Phil - From what I understand the Denon Link will pass all digital signals from the 9000 to the 5803: DD, DTS, DVD-A, PCM, etc... There are also SONIC advantages because it will allow the the 5803 to perform its bass management in the digital domain as opposed to the extra A/D conversion if you use the 9000's analog outputs.

Furthermore, by using the Denon Link, the player/receiver combo will automatically sense/select the correct digital signal (PCM, DTS Bitstream, etc.) Not sure how this will work, but its kind of nice. I assume that it will select the correct signal based on what DSP you select on the Denon 5803. Therefore, if you select DTS NEO, I assume that the 9000 will pass PCM rather than you having to go through the player's set up and manually selecting PCM....

The DL was also intended to pass DSD (SACD). According to Denon Jeff, Denon's Product Manager, Sony did not respond to Denon's request to license DSD for Denon's proprietary digital date transfer scheme. Therefore, they dropped SACD from these models. The 5803 was also designed to handle SACD so it's unfortunate that Sony is playing the "BETAMAX" game with its darling format. I can only assume that Denon felt it was nonsensical to include SACD through its analog outputs, forcing Denon users to use BOTH the 9000's Denon Link and 6 analog outputs just to accomdate SACD,which will ultimate decrease the inherint value of the DL...

Elbert

 

[KeithH]

Phil and Elbert,
Good info. about the Denon Link. Thanks for posting that here. It's too bad that one has to pay $3500 for the '9000 and about the same for the '5803 to get it, though. Like anything, in time, this sort of technology will trickle to lower-cost components.
Elbert,
It is a shame that Sony did not respond to Denon's interest in a digital output of SACD. Accuphase was able to get permission from Sony to develop a proprietary digital interface for stereo SACD. Accuphase released a two-box system last year for $27,000. Of course, Accuphase and Sony do not compete in the same market, but Denon and Sony do. Maybe Sony did not want a direct competitor to have a distinct advantage in marketing its own technology. Along these lines, sales of the Accuphase $27,000 SACD system (very low volume) were not in any way going to affect Sony's hardware sales. So, Sony had nothing to worry about in Accuphase offering a very high-priced digital interface for SACD. On the other hand, Denon, with its digital interface, could very well take hardware sales away from Sony. Of course, Sony would receive licensing fees, but Sony wants to maximize sales of its own hardware.
This is all just a theory I have. By denying Denon a digital interface for SACD, Sony could release one itself and be the first major hardware manufacturer to get one to market. However, Sony probably won't do it anyway. :rolleyes

 

[ReggieW]

Wow! Great info Elbert. Myself and others had been wondering what the situation currently was with the DVD-9000 being SACD capable. Sadly, now we know for sure. Many were told that it would be SACD capable at CES 2002, but it was never included in the spec sheet at Denon's website. As Keith stated, this is a great loss for Denon and Sony both, as the enormous price-tag on the DVD-9000 would've seemed a little more plausible as a high-end universal DVD-A/SACD player. Sony really missed the boat on this one, as it does seem unlikely if this type of digital scheme for SACD will be forthcoming from Sony anytime soon.

Reg

 

[Phil Nichols]

Elbert,

Thanks much for the outstanding explanation of Denon LINK!

Since I'm an amateur videophile and a lot worse audiophile, I have another very kindergarden question about the 9000's audio capabilities:

Even though the 9000 supposedly will be using very good Burr Brown DAC's, if I was to buy the 9000-5803 combination and hook up the DL to digitally take care of all audio data from the 9000 to the 5803, would the BB DAC's in the 9000 (which account for a nice piece of it's price) even be used for anything?

 

[KeithH]

Phil, given that one can use the Denon Link between the '9000 and '5803 for DVD-Audio, I see no reason to use the DACs in the '9000. I suppose it is possible that the DACs in the '9000 will be better than those in the '5803, but I doubt that will be the case. Of course, it's a good thing that the '9000 will have quality DACs in its own right because I'm sure a lot of owners will not be pairing it with the '5803.

 

[Elbert Lee]

I believe the 9000 uses Burr Brown 1704's which are just SLIGHTLY better than those utilized in the 5803. The Denon Product manager explained that the 5803 DACs were chosen becuase of their flexibility when it comes to DSPs and sound formats. They are able to accomodate SACD, but due to the licensing issue, Denon had to pass. (Denon's still being vague about the future possiblity of retrofitting the 9000 and 5803 to accomdate SACD should Sony grant permission for Denon to pass DSD through its DL)

I would probably still use the DL and bypass the 9000's internal DACs. As I had indicated before, the AVR5800+ and 5803 will perform A/D conversion of the bass through its analog inputs so the DL will eliminate that step. Plus, bandwidth is a huge plus.

I think it's possible that Sony is trying to develop its own standard for the digital transfer of SACD, but I think it's like shooting themselves in the foot since more exposure than only help the format. Then again, maybe Sony doesn't feel the urgency to grant these licenses yet since the format hasn't really taken off and software is still limited. Denon is the first to accomodate DTS 24/96 for dvd movies, but there hasn't been any real hollywood releases in DTS 24/96 yet. Sony is probably waiting for more DVD/SACD combi players to hit the market before bringing this next logical step to the market (stupid since people will be more inclined to purchase a combi dvd player if there is only one CAT5 cable like Denon's DL as opposed to 6 RCA cables)

Elbert

 

[James D S]

Denon's site used to list a feature of the 9000 as, "not having the chroma upsampling error," or some similiar statement. I just checked again (looking for scaling specs) and noticed that this line has been removed. What gives?

If the statement was removed because of tests that yielded the error in the 9000, it would kill a $3500 player.

That would be a shame as I was looking forward to this machine.

 

[James D S]

Just checked AVS and it seems that Denon will be using ESS for the decoding. I hope that the newer iterations of ESS decoders is better than their last bunches. Those were some real stinkers.
And how nice of Denon to drop a MAJOR feature (SACD multi playback) yet keep the MSRP the same. I bet that was a hard decision to make. :frowning:

 

[DonWinzen]

I agree with the complaints on the remote but a majority of the people that can afford a unit like this will probably move to the Pronto anyway. Not good justification, just my opinion.

P.S. I didn't see where it stated that the player will not play SACDs, in fact the CES description stated that it would, it simply didn't have the final specifications for implementation. Can you list the URL so I can read the article.?

 

[John Kotches]

James,

A few points to make.

1) SACD decoding wasn't spec'd to be in the 9000 as a standalone unit, just the 9000 --> 5803 combo. As such they didn't "drop a major feature".

2) Inclusion of SACD was provisional, and stated as such at CES -- the licensing issues could not be resolved with Sony/Philips with respect to a digital transfer of the SACD data from 9000 --> 5803.

3) 5803 DAC complement and construction is unchanged, since the issues to deliver SACD are licensing and software based.

While I understand your disappointment (I am disappointed as well) I think your frustration is misplaced.

Regards,

 

[KeithH]

John, good points, but I feel that $3500 is too much for a progressive-scan DVD-Audio player. I don't care how good it is. If the '9000 offered first-rate SACD playback, and not just with the '5803, but with any pre-amp/amp/receiver, as well as first rate CD, DVD, and DVD-Audio playback, the $3500 price tag would be easier to justify in my opinion. To me, the '9000 is overpriced as is.

 

[Robert A. Willis Jr.]

KeithH,
The $3500 is relative. There are a good number of players without DVDA (some without DAC's) that cost considerably more than $3500. I think one should buy the best that one can afford and leave it at that.
I can understand your frustration. I've been there but now I just shrug it off and move on. The companies may be doing you a favor, who knows what you will be able to get next year at a considerable saving .
rw

 

[James D S]

Thanks for clarifying John.

I guess the last hurdle (for me) would be for Denon to develop a player that does not display any chroma upsampling problems - Any word on this or why that was dropped from the feature list on Denon's site?

 

[KeithH]

Robert, I understand your point. However, while Denon is a quality name in the home-theater/audio industry, their name is not synonymous with ultra-high-priced, audiophile-quality front-end components. Companies like Meridian, Classe, Camelot, etc. are expected to release front-end components for $3500. Denon is not. For Denon to justify such a price, it needs a hook. DVD-Audio and SACD compatibility (and first-rate performance, of course) would be that hook.

Now, someone is likely to make the point that Sony sells SACD players for $3000+. However, these are exceptional audio components and do not possess video capability that often adversely affects audio performance. DVD players usually are not viewed as audiophile components, which is what a $3500 price tag suggests. Finally, companies like Meridian can justify $3500 for a DVD player since their distribution chain is limited, and their clientele will pay the price for the name and quality that is offered. For a variety of reasons, I feel a $3500 progressive-scan DVD-Audio player from Denon is a tough sell. Sony's DVP-S9000ES progressive-scan DVD/SACD player originally retailed for $1500 and now sells for as little as $800. Will the '9000 be over twice as good as the 'S9000ES? I am skeptical.

Denon was looking to include SACD compatibility in the '9000. It has been said that Sony did not help Denon make this a reality. The $3500 retail price was decided upon when it was thought that the player would be universal one. As a result, Denon should drop the retail price of the '9000.