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Denon 5800 upgrade or Pioneer VS49TX

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Mike Peveler, May 10, 2002.

  1. Miguel Stanic

    Miguel Stanic Stunt Coordinator

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    Here's my two cents......

    Had the 5600, 5700 and 5800. These units don't even compare to the 49TX. The 49TX is AMAZING plain and simple.

    The 5800 upgrade is a joke. Denon is taking forever to get this thing done in comparison to the wonderful job Onkyo has done with it's 989 upgrade.

    The 5803 is basically an upgraded Denon 5800. Denon has done nothing except sit on it's laurels, with the 5800, and slapped Dolby Pro Logic II and THX ULTRA2 onto it. At least Pioneer has invented a complete new unit considering they never had anything close to this in their previous lines before. They even got creative and did what others will follow including Denon. Others will have no choice but to follow with Auto Calibration. In all aspects, the 49TX is the CHAMP until new units are introduced.

    Down goes Denon, down goes Denon....the knockout punch has been delivered....don't kid yourself....the Pioneer is the real deal!!!
     
  2. RajeeK

    RajeeK Second Unit

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  3. Jeremy Hegna

    Jeremy Hegna Supporting Actor

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    "Few people have compared the 5800/5803 and 49TX side by side."
    There are those that have...and I mentioned that much earlier in the thread. You Pioneer lovers may want to check out those DIRECT comparisons. I don't believe one of you has tried out the 5803 side by side with the Pioneer either...and to make such bold statements....
    Look, Fellas....
    I was just trying to ruffle some feathers with some of my early comments. It's good to see the passion of the Pioneer crowd is as lively as it has been in the past with the Denon folks[​IMG] I'm just curious where all of the rest of the Denon lovers went[​IMG]
    I guess I just woke up on the right side of the bed this morning. I think that our original poster cannot base this decision on what we think...rather doing some in home auditioning with the said gear. If he has room challenges, the Pioneer may be a better fit with auto-calibration. If not...the upgraded Denon may be a good fit. OR, he could go with a seperates system, which is the direction I'm heading myself. I'm sure I will defend the Denon 5800 until it's dying days...as I'm sure you will the Pioneer. It's fun to debate these audio trivalties, IMO. (is that a word?)
    Mike Peevler,
    Try to get your hands on an in home audition of the Pioneer. The 5803 would be another bonus if you can try it at your house...as this is about the same as the upgraded 5800. Also, see if you can try out a 2 and 3 channel amplifier to hook up to the 5803/49. This will give you an idea of how well a seperates system would perform in your room...with the exception of the pre/pro. You may want to order an Outlaw 950 with their exchange program. If you decide on one of the big receivers...just return it.
    Also, someone was talking about B&K coming out with the AVR407 and a Ref 40. Not sure how much truth there is to this, but it may be worth the wait. Since there isn't a lot of new sound formats on the horizon, it may be a good time to buy another piece. Another option would be to wait on Denon's pre/pros scheduled for late this year, early next year...as DenonJeff eluded to this on his visit at AVscience.
    There are a bunch of great options on the market, especially with your budget. Every path you take will have it's weaknesses. There are those that have had the Pioneer shut down on strenuous loads...so they have to add outboard amplifiers...The Denon 5800 costs $800 to upgrade, and the 5803 doesn't have MCACC. As you can see, there are negatives no matter which way you go. In home audition, that's the only way you can figure it out.
    Peace,
    Jeremy
     
  4. PaulKH

    PaulKH Second Unit

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    OK - to answer Mike's question DIRECTLY...

    If I ALREADY OWNED a 5800 and had a choice of the $800 upgrade or selling it and getting a 49TX, I'd do the upgrade. I don't have to learn new equipment, new remotes, new cabling, etc. I don't have to sell a receiver. The 5800 is a great receiver, and I'm sure the upgrade just makes it better.
     
  5. PatrickM

    PatrickM Screenwriter

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    Wow, its amazing how these threads can get out of line so quickly.
    To answer the original question, I agree with PaulKH. For ease sake its probably better to get the upgrade unless your one of those who love having new toys and who on this board isn't in reality? [​IMG]
    I think the MCACC feature in the Pioneer is one great feature and hopefully it will start showing up on other receivers lower in the line and other makes.
    But, there are features on the 5800 and the upgraded 5800 which I find extremely good like the Pure Direct modes and the amps (I do own a 5800). Having said that, I will probably not upgrade the 5800 choosing to rather sell it to a friend and then get a pre/pro and separate amplification whenever I get around to upgrading again.
    Patrick
     
  6. Shane Martin

    Shane Martin Producer

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    Wonderful pissing contest going on but lets unjack this thread and have a conversation atleast.

    The only thing not mentioned here is the former threads about the 49tx and it being driven into clipping very easily by anything less than 6ohm speakers. I believe Obi drove his into clipping a few times and decided to add an external amp. I know alot of other Pioneer owners have done this as well.

    Can anyone confirm this type of thing?
     
  7. PaulKH

    PaulKH Second Unit

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    Shane - when you say clipping I think you mean it's auto-shutdown feature. A couple of people on the forums have said it has happened to them, but many more haven't had it happen. It's never happened to me and I've played some multi-channel stuff VERY loud (ref levels). Some have speculated the MCACC might CONTRIBUTE to the likelihood of shutdown by boosting power requirements on particular frequencies.

    I was at someone's house recently though who has a 5800 and it shut down also on some loud audio.

    There's limits to all equipment. Some people ARE clipping though with gear that doesn't have protection and this may well be damaging their speakers.
     
  8. WilliamL

    WilliamL Auditioning

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    I can see Jeremy is willing to consider other points of view, and that he's modest enough to admit when he might be wrong - (sarcasm optional). Honestly though, PaulKH's right, if you're happy enough with the AVR-5800, go with the upgrade if you want the extras. But if you're willing to go through the hassle and expense of buying a new unit, give the VSX-49TX a try.

    Just as there have been a couple of posts by a couple Denon owners who compared the AVR-5800/3 to the VSX-49TX and didn't switch, there are also a number of posts by people who did the comparison and did switch - one who is posting in this thread, many more on the forum I mentioned before, perhaps you might want to look at why such bold statments are being made. No, I didn't switch with a Denon, but I did listen to it, I even considered buying a demo 5800 which was discounted because the 5803 was coming out - at a store that was only open for about a week before they discounted the model. Hell, I suggested the unit to a friend who was looking for a receiver - I wouldn't recommend a unit I thought was bad to a friend. I decided that the 49TX was worth the extra cash - but then I had it to spend. If I didn't I wouldn't be heartbroken to buy that demo Denon. But I know I wouldn't be here winding people up about the uselessness of MCACC, but then I know what it can do.

    Those of us who have compared the systems aren't covering up buyer's remorse, the Pioneer is less expensive than the 5803 - or even the 5800 with the upgrade. The only ones who might have buyer's remorse are those who've switched, but then they would have the chance to compare since they already had the other unit - I still haven't seen a post by someone who bought the 49TX and decided they made a mistake.

    As to MCACC, whether it is on a Pioneer or on a Denon, it is the technology and its results - quite bloody audible results, ones that even someone with an SPL meter (provided he isn't deaf to start with) could hear. I'm sure even Denon will realize the importance. They'd better, because if the amps are capable, and both are, the difference will come down to which one will provide flatter response. There's only so much you can do with a SPL meter, and adjusting frequency response isn't one of them (at least not with any SPL I've seen or bought at the Rat Shack - yes I do own one from my pre-49TX days.)

    As to the supposed problem with the Pioneer's amps, the "problem", as you can read in those posts, results from people trying to break the sound barrier, and suddenly being upset that their receiver shut down at levels that even they admit that they'd never actually listen to. And a contributing factor in most of the cases have been speakers that present less than 6 ohm loads, especially when there is a mix of 4 and 8 ohm speakers, like 4 ohm surrounds with 8 ohm mains. The Pioneer, as tested by both Sound and Vision and Stereophile, is capable of driving upwards of 130 real watts per speaker into 8 ohms with 5 or more channels driven, over 200 watts per channel into 4 ohms with 5 channels driven. Neither test had any problems with shut downs, but then they didn't attemp to blow their system. If you have a very large room, you're better off with a dedicated amp than either of these units, as even the Denon cannot drive much more than 130 watts into 8 ohms with 5 channels driven. Neither system was significantly more powerful.

    Jeremy, it's nice to see that you enjoy winding people up, it is good to have a hobby.
     
  9. Evelio Figueroa

    Evelio Figueroa Second Unit

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    If I had the 5800, I'd send it in for the upgrade. I wouldn't go for another brand if it gave me no problems.

     
  10. Chip E

    Chip E Screenwriter

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    This has been an interesting thread.. I'll just say that i'd've been happy with either one of these receiver's IE: the 49TX or 5803 (and came very,very close to owning a 49TX) but, ended up with a 5803 after owning, using and loving a B&K 307 for 11 months or so. I consider the 5803 a lateral movement in sound quality and a huge upgrade in processing features. I've yet to use them all after a month with it.
     
  11. Robert George

    Robert George Screenwriter

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    Just for the record, my 49TX did shut down, but on only one passage and that was not in a movie (THX trailer on Phantom menace). And I agree with PaulKH's correction. The 49TX is not driven to clipping because of the protection circuit. Unlike most other receivers, Pioneer seems to have set the protection circuit in the 49TX so that the amps will not overdrive to the point that there can be damage to one's speakers. BTW, the Onkyo 989 does this same thing.
    As for adding external amps, yes, I did, but not because I felt the receiver's amps were inadequate. My speakers needed more power than this receiver can provide with the listening environment I have. This would be true of most receivers. I know the B&K can do the job and I expect the Denon could, but I did shut down the Onkyo 989 before the B&K replaced it.
    Instead of taking it as a negative that I added an external amp, I consider it more a testament to the quality of the rest of the 49TX's features that one would go to the expense of adding an amp just to keep the receiver in a system. Certainly I am very pleased with my system as it now stands.
     
  12. Jeremy Hegna

    Jeremy Hegna Supporting Actor

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    "Jeremy, it's nice to see that you enjoy winding people up, it is good to have a hobby."
    Thanks buddy...It's impossible to count the times others have wound me up over this Chevy vs. Ford debate of flagship receivers[​IMG]
    Its good to see some Denon folks getting involved, and regardless of my comments, I'm not 100% sold on the MCACC. However, if it helps you guys with your setup and calibration, more power to you. BTW, Obi...when you use external amplifiers with the Pioneer, will the MCACC still work correctly for the externally amplified channels? It seems many more folks are using the flagship receivers as a pre/pro considering that you can't find the features on stand/alone pre/pros that you can on the big receivers.
    Jeremy
     
  13. Dave Moritz

    Dave Moritz Lead Actor
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    Mike,

    I am also currently looking to upgrade my current 5.1 Yamaha receiver. I was recently won over by the Pioneer Elite 49TX so it is now one of my conciderations. The Denon 5803 is also on my short list of 6.1 receivers. Not putting the Pioneer down but I think if you are happy with your 5800. That you should get the upgrade, your 5800 has more inputs, rf remote and in my opinon a better preamp section than the Pioneer. There is no doubt that both companies have put alot of work into both peices. You will have to deciede if the Pioneers MCACC and video processing is worth trading your Denon in for? I can not honestly say imho that if you already have a Denon flagship receiver then you will not gain much from the Pioneer. You would be looking at going beyond a Pioneer Elite to something like a Krell, McIntosh, Theta Digital or a great preamp with a Lexicon processor. This how ever may be out of your price range as it is out of mine at this time. I own a Yamaha RV-X995 that is 5.1 and am looking to upgrade to a better flagship receiver with 6.1. Let us know what you decide what is best for you.
     
  14. Robert George

    Robert George Screenwriter

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  15. Aslam Imran

    Aslam Imran Second Unit

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  16. Greg S

    Greg S Supporting Actor

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  17. Shane Martin

    Shane Martin Producer

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    Well most of us don't have 102 db type efficient Klipsch's(sp) so this is why I ask.

    Unfortunately this appears to be the case with any of the high end recievers as they are going to need an external amp to keep the speakers happy.
     
  18. Jeremy Hegna

    Jeremy Hegna Supporting Actor

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    Thanks Obi.
    One of my misunderstandings of the Pioneer's MCACC was that it operated ONLY with the internal amplifiers supplied, not outboard amplification...VERY cool.
    Aslam,
    Be careful...or I will wind you up[​IMG]
    Jeremy
     
  19. Jeremy Hegna

    Jeremy Hegna Supporting Actor

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    "Unfortunately this appears to be the case with any of the high end recievers as they are going to need an external amp to keep the speakers happy."

    Shane,

    As a reciever owner, I don't know that this is necessarily the case if your primary concern is HT. Certainly, for 2 channel music listening...outboard amplifiers help immensely. Both the 49 and 5800 are capable of well over 130 watts with all channels driven...which never happens in the course of an actual movie. However, with only 2 channels driven, both are capable of over 200 watts @ 8ohms. This is pretty damn good power from receiver amplifiers IMO. Also, rated power isn't taking into consideration setting some or all of the speakers to small. Eliminating the need for power during bass heavy scenes.

    Of course, the bigger and better speakers available will only sing their best with the upper limits of amplification available for those particular speakers. Also, speakers that tend to drop into 2-4 ohm territory benefit well.

    Jeremy
     
  20. PatrickM

    PatrickM Screenwriter

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    Obi, since you have changed out various speakers while still connected to the 49TX and re-calibrated each time, it begs the question:

    Does the MCACC make the soundstage seem like there was no change in sound transducers which is the ultimate goal?

    Patrick
     

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