Denon 3803 vs 4802R (1 Viewer)

[Shiu]

Mark, I have a Sony DA4ES and a Adcom separates (565 Pre and 555 Power). I am going to try using the 4ES front channel preouts to drive the GFP555. You mentioned a couple of times about using the preamp as well, but can you explain how my Adcom preamp could fit in. Why would I want to add the extra preamp in the path?

 

[Mark Russ]

Shiu, the 4ES will make a great pre/pro for movies.

Your Adcom 565 pre should have "processor in" switch on the front panel with corresponding input and outputs on the rear panel jack pack. It is basically like a tape monitor loop. Hook the preouts of the 4ES to the inputs of the processor loop. Then hook the output of the processor loop to the main L/R inputs of the 4ES. Anyone without the "processor" function like Shiu's Adcom 565 can do the same thing by simply using a tape monitor loop and setting the input and recording selector switch to that tape loop when using their receiver for movies.

When watching movies, set the volume ot the 565 to the 12:00 position. That is the so called "unity gain" setting. Recalibrate everything with your 4ES accordingly. Then use the volume of the 4ES when watching movies to raise or lower the volume as you wish. This will also control the main front L/R powered by your Adcoms as well as center and surrounds powered (I assume) by the 4ES.

On 2 channel music, the 4ES will be out of the loop entirely if you are using a CD player's own DACs hooked up to the 565 by cables to the analog CD inputs. This will easily be far superior to the 4ES on 2 channel, providing your CD player is halfway decent.

It will take some setting up, but it will be well worth it.

 

[David Judah]

Well, Mark, it's not pointless--I'm sorry you feel that way; it's a discussion which is what this Forum is all about: different people discussing things from different POV's and experiences. Friendly disagreement is a natural byproduct since audio quality is very subjective.

I work in the consumer electronics industry and I listen, demo, and give presentations on a variety of gear. I'm very familiar with the sonic attributes of many of the Japanese receivers(and seperates), even though I don't necessarily know every little feature they might have.

I say this not to prove I'm some kind of expert--I'm not, but to give you an idea that I get a chance to really listen and compare in a fairly controlled environment to a greater extent than the average person who strolls into their local electronics store on a Sunday afternoon. IOW, I'm not basing my views on my experiences by switching between a few receivers at the local Circuit City.

Again, that doesn't mean that my preferences should be considered above all others, because of the very subjective nature of judging sound quality.

I agree that a mid line receiver with a two channel preamp is a good way to go, but I didn't think that is what we were discussing. If I recall correctly, I think there was going to be a $200 difference between the 3803+ amp and the 4802R. Eric quoted $2000 for the 4802R, but I've seen even many B&M retailers sell it for much less.

We've had this kind of discussion many times before when someone asks if they should add an amp to their receiver. Opinions vary, just like this thread, from some reporting drastic differences to slight to none. It's not as clear cut as some seem to believe it is. You have to consider things like different equipment, rooms, and even psychological factors such as pride of ownership in a new purchase.

In the end, obviously, Eric is going to have to decide what he likes best. Hopefully, this thread will aid him in that quest.

DJ

 

[Shiu]

Mark, when you say "..........hook the output of the processor loop to the main L/R inputs of the 4ES", I assume you meant the L/R inputs of the GFA555 right?

If I understood you correctly, using the processor in/out loop simply allows me to conveniently select the 4ES for movies by pushing in the processor in switch, without disturbing the interconnection between the GFP565 and the GFA555. So the 565 is not really used to amplifier the signal from the 4ES. If I misundertood, please clarify this for me one more time. Thanks again for your help.

 

[Robert_Dufresne]

Eric

You must understand that the 4802 is the 5802's little brother. They are both based on the same architecture.
The 3803 on the other hand shares it's architecture with the lower end models of the Denon line. You will notice this if you look under the hood of both machines.

The line between high end receivers and entry level seperates is getting more and more blurred. The argument that any outboard amp will best the amp in any receiver is simply not true.

If your room is average and your speakers not to hungry for power, the 4802 will provide more than enough power.

Have fun shopping

Robert

 

[GregoriusM]

No one said that just ANY amp would be better than the ones in the 4802 or 3803 or any other receiver.

But, "pound for pound" or "apples to apples", an outboard amp with its own power supply, etc. has a better chance than an inboard amp that must share the power supplies, etc. In other words, if you took the 7-channel amp OUT of the 4802R and gave it its own power supply, transformer, etc., I believe you would get better performance and very possibly better sound from the setup.

IMHO.

Greg

 

[David Judah]

Just as a FYI, the 3803 has 4 independant power supplies, while the 4802R has 7 including a toroidal transformer.

Whether an improvement would be noticed if it was in a seperate box with a beefier power supply would be owner, system, and room dependant, IMO.

DJ

 

[Mark Russ]

Eric Lo, I have now became convinced, finally saw the light, and changed my mind. By all means, get the 4802! You couldn't possibly spend $1500 any better. I mean, after all, you will be getting processing that is only 2, going on 3 generations old now. Not to mention a reciever with an amp section superior even to seperates! It's a no brainer!

---------------------------------------------------------
Shiu "Mark, when you say "..........hook the output of the processor loop to the main L/R inputs of the 4ES", I assume you meant the L/R inputs of the GFA555 right?

If I understood you correctly, using the processor in/out loop simply allows me to conveniently select the 4ES for movies by pushing in the processor in switch, without disturbing the interconnection between the GFP565 and the GFA555. So the 565 is not really used to amplifier the signal from the 4ES. If I misundertood, please clarify this for me one more time. Thanks again for your help."

Shiu, the 555 power amp's input will be hooked up to one of the three main outputs of the 565 pre. The 4ES' main out will be connected to the input of the "processer" loop of the 565, and the 565's "processor" loop output will run to the 4ES' main in. I know it may sound confusing, but somehow it all works as it's supposed to. Hope this helps. You will then have one kick @$$ combination there!

 

[Robert_Dufresne]

Nice Thread fart Mark

 

[Mark Russ]

Robert_Dufresne

"Nice Thread fart Mark "




Thanks Robert! I was kinda proud of it myself!
"If ya smellllllllll what the Mark is cookin'!!!!!!!!!"

 

[GregoriusM]

I have to admit I had a nice little chuckle myself!

 

[David Judah]

So did you already exchange your 3803 for a 4802R?

DJ

 

[Felix_H]

Here's my example. I'm still using the 3300 rated 5x105watts. How old is that? :alien:

When I add my Hafler SE120 (2x65watts) for the Front L/R, there is definately a noticeable difference that my wife could even tell. And the Hafler is XX years old!

So with an external amplifier, it puts less stress on the receiver.

Thus the question again is "Which reciever has better processing"?

 

[Mark Russ]

Sorry guys! I just got a little carried away there.

To the original poster of this thread, Eric, in all seriousness, it is your money. If possible, try to extensively audition them both if you can.

I still stand by my original statement though. For $600 or so new now, the 3803 is truly a no brainer. You probably couldn't buy a better dedicated pre/pro for movies than the pre/pro section it has for even twice the price. And if you put it together with a seperate power amp and 2 channel pre-amp, not only do I think it would top the 4802R, but even the 5803 too on both movies and music, and for less money to boot.


Please let us know whatever you decide, and good luck.

 

[GregoriusM]

I agree totally with Mr. Russ.

 

[Earl Simpson]

I am in the same boat! I have the upgrade fever for my 3802. Power amps for ??? or 7200 at $788. What power amps do you recommend that have the best bang for the $$$?
Thanks

 

[Mark Russ]

Earl, the HK 7200 is a damned fine machine at a no brainer price right now! But if it were me, I'd keep using the 3802 for now as a pre/pro and sink that money into a power amp (or amps) instead. That is one thing that will NEVER become obsolete, and you can always upgrade your pre/pro capabilities later on down the line.

Of course, if you can sell the 3802 and recover at least most of the cost of the HK 7200, that would also be an option too.

Either way it would be an upgrade, even though the 3802 is a fine machine itself.

 

[Shiu]

Felix, are you serious? In my life time, it happened only once that my wife could tell a difference among my sound system components/combinations. It was when I A/B the same violin concerto using a vinyl (using a Stanton 881EE cartridge) and a CD player. She could tell them apart easily when the violin was playing. That was over 10 years ago, and the vinyl definitely sound much better.

 

[GregoriusM]

While men are more predominantly into HT, there are plenty of women, especially the wives of HT nuts, who listen/learn enough to be able to tell at least "less-than-subtle" differences in their spouses equipment combinations.

Heck, pretty well every female that I know when I do any A/B comparison (not really A/B, but A..... short span.... B), they can tell the difference. And not only tell you the difference, but enunciate it in their own terms. Terms that you can translate into the terms the "we" normally use, although those aren't even standard.

Don't "short-change" the women-folk, people!

Just because it may not be their first love doesn't mean they don't want or can't hear and enjoy a better sounding system.

IMO.

Greg

 

[Shiu]

Sorry Greg, actually you are right. When pushed really hard, she would in fact "enunciate" the difference in her own terms............ I thought women may say things(e.g. no difference whatsoever) just to discourage their spouse from spending money on upgrades. So, perhaps they could tell the differences, but they don't place as much value in the "differences" as men do, IMHO only.

Back to the main topic, I am definitely going to try using my 4ES as pre/pro. If it works, I would not upgrade (thinking of the HK7200 or the Denon 3905) for a while. The problem is, to hook it up as Mark suggested, I need to find two pairs of good quality 15 feet RCA jack interconnects. I have not been able to find one yet, I don't know if it is a waste of time to use those skinny ones typically come with DVD/CD players.