Denon 3803 experiences? Benefits over 3801? (1 Viewer)

[Chuck Kent]

I'll have to try the DD 2.0 test when I get a chance. But lots going on right now! I think I have something floating around that has 2.0 music on it. I'm pretty sure that my DVD player is hooked up via optical only right now though. (My tests have been using my CD player.)

I did think of another "test" that AL24 did not pass. The "Ralph the Dog" phase test on the Stereophile Test CD 1. When in AL24, the in phase and out of phase results were largely unchanged. When I went straight analog, the dog barked in radically different places (as it should.)

I reset my 3803 right out of the box when I first bought it. I've owned Denon for quite a while and knew that a handful of owners have needed to to the reset for various quirks. So I went ahead and did it before I even started. FWIW, I haven't noticed any operating gremlins.

(Also, I have e-mailed Denon on our analog bypass question. I haven't received a reply yet (surprise!) But I will keep on trying...)

I agree that the 3803 is flexible enough that we can all use it and be very satisfied with the end result, no matter how we have it set up...

 

[CurtisC]

I have my 3802 sold and I can hardly wait to get the 3803.The trigger and other upgrades make it worth it for 150.00 more.

 

[Gil D]

Mike,
I had already returned the 3803 before trying the reset.
Here is what Denon had to say about the parallel BM on the 3803 :

Stereo with Analog Source - High pass all Analog at 80, parallel signal sent to DSP for BM
Direct with Analog Source - NO High pass filtering, parallel signal sent to DSP for BM
Pure Direct with Analog source - No high pass filtering, all analog low-pass at 80Hz
We do not A/D analog when using any of the above modes, also 5-channel stereo.

I was hoping that you could engage the Analog Hi pass along with a DSP or analog low pass for the sub in Direct/Pure-Direct since there would be bass overlap with my minimonitors and the sub. I also didn't like the idea of sending full range signal to my 5.5 and 7" woofers, but they seem to be holding up.
I was thinking that the bass overlap may have been resulting in some bass cancellation on the 3803 in Direct. But I don't sense any phase problems on the 5800 in Direct/Pure.
Hope this helps.
Gil

 

[Chuck Kent]

Mike: Thanks for the tests. At some point, when I get the time, I'll write down all of my settings and try another reset.

 

[Gil D]

Weird, as on my 3803, I know that 80Hz is not the case. If I turn my subwoofer off, I can hear the difference in bass that passes to the main speakers when selecting different crossovers at 120, 100, or 80. The 3802 shares the same crossover points. If it is true analog crossovers, then there would be 3 needed on the AVR-3802 and 5 on the AVR-3803 for the 40Hz and 60Hz crossover points, not just the one at 80Hz.

There is only one Analog crossover at 80Hz. The adjustable points you mention are done by the DSP.

If you use only Digital inputs then you are not using Denon's Parallel BM as this only available for Analog sources. Chuck has an excellent Adcom CD player and I have a Sony 555es which is also a nice player with analog outputs where it's advantageous for us to use the analog inputs and parallel BM. I wound up setting the crossover to 80Hz so that in the Analog Stereo and 5-Channel Stereo modes I would not have any gaps.

As for boomy bass. I never experience any boomy bass with my Hsu with any processor. I can hardly detect the bass overlap in the case of the Denon's with parallel BM. I rarely change the sub level but if I do it's only 1 or 2dB. If your getting boomy bass from your Vel, you may want to try locating it in different spot.

From your experiments it is beginning to look like my 3803 and possibly Chuck's was defective. Most likely something amiss with the AL24 digital filter. I wonder if it's possible to check the firmware version?

 

[Gil D]

Anyhow, this is not a big deal, as I'm happy with my AVR-3803, Chuck is happy with his 3803, and your happy with your 3802.

I'm happier with my 5800
I don't know what to tell you on the crossovers. I'd be shocked if Denon had ten hi quality analog filters on the 3803. The press release mentions only one.

 

[Yogi]

Anyhow, this is not a big deal, as I'm happy with my AVR-3803, Chuck is happy with his 3803, and your happy with your 3802.

And I am happier with my 3802 (plus the amps). Atleast for another two years at which time I'll be looking at a standalone prepro (hopefully the B&K ref 60)

 

[Jamey F]

I don't know what to tell you on the crossovers. I'd be shocked if Denon had ten hi quality analog filters on the 3803. The press release mentions only one.

Me too. I would think they are analog filters at only 80Hz if any are analog, while being digital at the others or digital for all bass. Anyway you look at it, Denon isn't telling us a lot. Until someone who knows there stuff at Denon gets back with someone with the answers, we'll all keep guessing.

I need to do some calibration before I chime in on bass management, but I do have some bass issues. When I set my sub level by ear (I know this is terrible) to equal what my other speakers are, I get too much bass on almost all sources. When I cut it back a bit (3db or so) to what I find better sounding, it is barely audible in the test tone sweep. I'm giong to get a ratshack meter and calibrate a little more professionally..

 

[Jamey F]

STOP!!! While the RS meter is great calibrating channel levels while using the same frequency tones, it's not very accurate comparing a bass tone(subwoofer)to a higher tone(speakers).

I didn't know that. I have to do all the channel levels. I will do the sub too just to see what happens, but I will keep it in mind that the meter will probably be off a decent bit. Any opinion on digital meter vs. the analog version? I know it's been debated back and forth to death.

 

[Chuck Kent]

Mike: I'm near the Kokomo area.

Your single channel reversed polarity idea does make some sense. As I said, when I get a fair amount of time to throw at this, I'll try another reset.

Hopefully, that will end up giving me results similar to yours. But even if it doesn't change things, there's still a good chance I won't do anything about it. I get very good results from the reliable Adcom CD player and don't have any other complaints on the 3803...

 

[Jamey F]

What would be a good disc for testing phase on all speakers. I've used the THX setup on the Fight Club DVD, but I don't like it for audio tests.

 

[Gil D]

Mike,

Yea that's it. I read it as analog hi pass filter at 80Hz. The 80Hz low pass in the Pure Direct mode that Jeff mentioned was news to me. It would have been really nice if you could engage both the analog hi pass AND analog low pass simultaneously.

So if you don't want bass overlap for Analog source then use Stereo mode and set the sub at 80Hz per Jeff. This is what I did on my Denon 3802 for SACD and CD out of my Sony 555es.

Stereo with Analog Source - High pass all Analog at 80, parallel signal sent to DSP for BM

 

[Gil D]

On the Rat Shack meter.

There's a cal table posted somewhere to calibrate the low bass readings (under 50Hz?). But I believe it's not necessary to calibrate the sub level with the tones produced by VE or Avia.

The common consensus is to get the analog meter.

 

[Chuck Kent]

Mike: I had a spare hour or so to write down most of my settings (of course there are so many I forgot some :frowning: ), so I went ahead and tried the reset.
And guess what??? AL24 now sounds normal! I compared the Dog Bark Test and an early mono Beatles CD. Both compare the same as analog. And, low and behold, I also have more bass in AL24 mode (just as an in-phase system would/should have.)
I must admit that I was surprised. But hey, I'll take what I get.
Thanks for the help! I'm listening to Pink Floyd now!!!

 

[David Judah]

The Radio Shack SPL meter correction chart is here(courtesy of member Terry C's website).
Interesting discussion going on here fellas. FWIW, I think the Denon receivers got progressively brighter from the 3801, 3802, & 3803. I guess it shows how subjective alot of this is.
DJ

 

[Gil D]

That's good news Chuck. Maybe I should bring another one home for a try. How does AL24 compare to your Adcom now?

 

[Yogi]

Interesting discussion going on here fellas. FWIW, I think the Denon receivers got progressively brighter from the 3801, 3802, & 3803. I guess it shows how subjective
alot of this is.

Ditto, my experience. Of course subjective again.

 

[Willem Vos]

no internal cooling fan (although one could argue it might be better to have one)

Where does it say that the 3802 (or 3801 for that matter) has a cooling fan?! I'm pretty sure one isn't present in either of the previous models.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Chuck Kent]

Sorry guys. Haven't been on for a while. Some serious family health things I've been needing to help with...
Gil: I just haven't had time to listen much yet. But the reset definitely has the soundstage where it should be. As time presents itself (and that may be tough for quite a while), I plan to do some more serious listening and compare. But at least initially, it might sound a little more open (or clearer.) But it's too early to really say.
Willem: The 3802 (and the 3801 and the 3300) definitely had/have fans in them. Denon verified this to me over the phone. Plus I saw them with my own baby blues! The 3802's fan sits toward the front of the heat sink block (at an approx 45 degree angle.) The heat sink in the 3803 is very different (and I cannot see any fan.)

 

[Willem Vos]

Thanks Chuck,
I've not been able to spot the cooling-fan, but I believe you
I would have thought (if there was a fan) that the logical place for it would be at the back of the unit, but since it's located at the front, that might explain why I never noticed it.
Also, I have NEVER heard it.
I guess that's good news, I've apparently never pushed my 3802 far enough for it to switch on...