Denon 3802 vs 4802 (1 Viewer)

[Scott Merryfield]

I'll make one more attempt to get this thread back on topic...
I re-read the 4802 manual (downloaded from Denon's website), and it seems to imply that the adjustable crossover setting is universally applied to all channels -- i.e. you cannot set your mains to 40Hz, surrounds to 60Hz and center to 80Hz (as in my previous example). All channels will have the same crossover setting. Can any actual 4802 owner confirm this?
While I appreciate the debate on external amplification for receivers, how about starting a separate thread if you wish to continue this debate? I think there are several people interested in the differences between the 3802 and 4802 and the value of those differences, and this argument is only sidetracking the discussion.

 

[Gil D]

Once again in relavance to this post I'll tell what I would have done it I were in this situation. I would have bought a 3802 for $1200 and an outlaw amp for $1100, for a total of $2300, and if I threw in the ICBM (that doesnt sound so useful afterall after reading the previous post) then I'd be $50 above the MSRP of the 4802. I wouldn't be saving dough right away but when I upgrade I'll only be buying a 3803, while the 4802 guys will be buying a 4803. At that point in time I'll start saving some serious dough. And as years pass by and as all of us will upgrade endlessly, I'll be way ahead in terms of dough. Seriously that was the only message I was trying to get across.

I agree 100% with Mark
The other point I would add is that if one is on a limited budget say with perhaps only half the budget of a 4802 he can buy the 3802 today (and enjoy something now) and add more amplification later as his budget allows. If budget isn't a concern then get the 5800 & separate amp, or a Lexicon, Krell, Meridian, etc

 

[NickSP]

Gil, thats exactly what I plan to do. I have the Onkyo 898 which I am currently very happy with and in the future will match it to a good 5 channel amp.

 

[AjayM]

Moreover in those explosions when my (and everybody else's) speakers are dipping their impedance to around 2 ohms

My speakers don't get anywhere near 2 Ohms, and I'm willing to bet that a good majority of the speakers around don't get get anywhere near 2 Ohms. Although I do know that Martin Logan has a few models that dip down in that range (but at 20Khz), but not to many cone speakers.

Andrew

 

[AjayM]

@ Ajay/Andrew.

Well, I guess I'll expand a little. First I do agree with the general point you are making, a seperate amp will almost always sound better than the built in amp in a reciever, for a lot of the reasons you mentioned (and thats my current setup and it was a big improvement). Besides I think far to many people put to much emphasis on power ratings instead of looking/listening to the whole package. Face it, the difference between 100watts and 200watts is only 3 db. And if you have reasonably effecient speakers, you'll never use any of that. Look at a speaker with a 92db/1w/1m rating.
92db @ 1watt
95db @ 2watts
98db @ 4watts
101db @ 8watts
104db @ 16watts
107db @ 32watts
110db @ 64watts
113db @ 128watts
So now mix in the other speaker from the pair (assuming stereo) and you loosely gain an additional 3db to all of the above numbers and it doesn't take much power to drive yourself into the hearing damage level.
But there still aren't many speakers (well, outside the super-high-end level anyways) that dip down to 2Ohms.
Andrew

 

[jason celaya]

I agree with Mark.

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

If your budget allows you to step up to the 4802 without making sacrifices in your system, go for it. The 4802 is a great piece of gear and, IMO, for many other reasons than the added amplification. If music is an important part of your system, bring some discs down to your local Denon dealer. Compare the two receivers, side by side and see what you think.

DTS 24/96, THX post processing, selectable bass management, high definition switching, better connectiblility, etc. Most differences have been outlined in this post. I have been a Denon owner for the past 10 years. I still have a Denon 3300 and it's a good HT receiver. However, when I upgraded a year ago to the 5800...the difference was night and day. I'm not familiar enough with the 3802 and 4802 to make such a comparison....but for me, the upgrade from the 3300 to the 5800 was much more significant than what could be had with the addition of outboard amplification. Obviously, the 3300 doesn't have most of the options that the 3802 and 4802 share...so take this with a grain of salt. Spend some time with each receiver at your house, if possible and go from there. I believe that there is enough of a positive difference in the Denon receiver price points to justify the higher prices on the way up the line. The more you spend, the better the receiver gets.

Jeremy

 

[chaz fifer]

The crossover is set for all channels.They can't be set individually.

 

[Lewis Besze]

My speakers don't get anywhere near 2 Ohms, and I'm willing to bet that a good majority of the speakers around don't get get anywhere near 2 Ohms. Although I do know that Martin Logan has a few models that dip down in that range (but at 20Khz), but not to many cone speakers.

You would be surprised!
Even easy loads like the Def Tech's BP 10 dips below 3ohms,at several ferquencies,and go as high as 16ohms,so it gets the nominal 8 ohms rating.

 

[chaz fifer]

Mark, maybe this will give you another good laugh! OLIVERG is absolutely correct, sound quality has NOTHING to do with weather or not pre-amps and power amps are housed insdide the same physical box or not! Its the build quality of both that determines overall sound quality. The ONLY reason that seperates tend to sound better is that the manufacturers have devoted their resources to one or the other instead of both.

 

[Geo]

Interesting debate concerning 3802 vs 4802 performance.

From this tread one may come to several conclusions.

If you believe the 3802 plus outboard amps is a better performer than the 4802 and even the 5800, then maybe the 2802 with even bigger outboard amps or for that matter the 1802 with huge monster amps is the hot ticket. Although I doubt the 1802 has preamp outputs.

For my money I would:

3K........... buy the 5800/02

2K........... buy the 4802

and so on............

 

[Adil M]

Let me jump in w/ a hypothetical.

Lexicon DC1 is 1300 +or- a 100. Add a decent amp, outlaw. Are you telling me a 5802 or 4802 will best it. Maybe it will just best it in 2 channel, probably not? Separates is hard to beat when the cash starts flowing.

 

[TomH]

It sounds like a lot of you have extensive experience with Denon receivers used alone and as preamps.

In your opinion:

Would a 2802 sound as good as a 4802 used as a preamp?

Could a 4802 used as a preamp produce sound comparable to that of dedicated pre/pros such as Ref 30, 950, TAE9000 etc?

Thanks

 

[Jack F]

My experience using the 3801 as a Pre Amp was totally opposite of Marks. My findings were that the pre-amp section itself made the sound non-dynamic, even when using a seperate Adcom Amp that played very dynamic hooked up to a B&K Reference 20 or an Adcom PreAmp.
My Review on the 5800 @ Audio Review - After hearing Dolby Digital and DTS for the first time, I decided it was time to retire my Adcom ProLogic PreAmp. After doing extensive research in hopes of upgrading to another PreAmp, I ended up with the 5800.
I first tried a B&K Refference 20 PreAmp. It sounded good but had a problem. It would not decode surround on any input other than Video 2. I brought it back and decided to try something different after reading about quality control issues with some of the Ref 20's. This was last year, right around the time that the Ref 30 was just starting to be mentioned.
After about 6 months, (building house) I decided to give DD/DTS another try. This time I was thinking that maybe a Receiver in the $1,000.00 range would work well with my previous Adcom Amplifier. So, I decided to give the Pioneer Elite VSX-36TX a try. I used the Adcom Amp to power the Front L/R and a single Surround Back. The sound Quality was not what I was used to, it was definitely a very noticeable decrease in SQ from the Adcom Pre-Amp.
I am obviously in love with the Movie end of it, DD/DTS sounds great, but it's hard to sacrifice the sound of music altogether for the movie aspect. Also, if the music is noticeably lacking, (non-dynamic/lacking bass) it leaves me feeling that the sound of Movies could be improved greatly as well.
So after remembering how much I liked the warm sound of the Denon Receiver I owned before I purchased the Adcom Separates, I decided to look more closely into what Denon had to offer. Of course Denon doesn't offer a Pre-Amp only so after reading all of the Rave Reviews on the 3801, I decided to give it a shot. I exchanged the Pioneer for the 3801.
Well, it was an improvement over the Pioneer, but after only a couple of days of listening, I couldn't tollerate the bright harsh sound that it produced with my Klipsch Speakers. I tried playing with the Tone controls. I made sure all of the Speaker settings were correct, (large - LFE&Sub). I also hooked it up to my Adcom Amp, (Adcom on Front L-C-R). Maybe that unit sounds good with Speakers that are really laid back, but no matter what I tried, it was simply painful to listen to after a very short period of time. I listened to an old Cars song that I like to use to Demo stereo equipment with, then disconnected the 3801 and hooked up my old Adcom PreAmp again and listened to the same track. The difference is like night and day. The Adcom is very dynamic and punchy. It SLAMS.
So, back to Tweeter. I must be their worst nightmare. But I am determined to have that nice new DD/DTS-ES Movie surround, without losing the clear, dynamic, punchy, slam I'm used to in my music.
After considering the idea of trying the 4800, I decided to just go for it and grab the 5800. It's alot of money for a receiver, but I'm willing to spend it if I can achieve the sound of the Adcom with the benefit of DD/DTS-ES. I'm actually thinking that even the 5800 isn't going to come close to the sound of the Adcom, but I'm going to give it one last shot.
So, I got home with the 5800. I listened to that same Cars track again before pulling the Adcom out of the Rack. I hooked up the 5800, went into setup and set everything appropriately, then cranked up the same track again. To my absolute amazement and disbelief, the 5800 smoked the Adcom as bad as the Adcom smoked the 3801. I couldn't believe it. The slam was back and this time it had an attitude. It's worth noting here that my Adcom Amp was 100 watts per channel as well as were all of the Receivers I had tried previously. The difference being that with the Adcom PreAmp that 100 watts per channel had a nice, warm, punchy, dynamic sound. With the same Amp hooked to the Receivers, it was lost.
The 5800 gained all of the nice, warm, punchy, dynamic sound back and added about 70 watts per channel to it.
Everything sounds awesome with the 5800. I am in heaven. Tweeter won't be seeing me for a while now but I don't think they'll miss me.
I would give the 4802 a good listen.
Jack