Denon 3802 Bass Management in Direct Mode

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Andrew_B, Dec 16, 2001.

  1. Andrew_B

    Andrew_B Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    When using the analog inputs on the 3802 from a cd player with the main speakers set to small, will the sub be active in this configuration? In other words, is the direct mode truly direct or does it go through some bass management circuitry?
     
  2. Chris_Campbell

    Chris_Campbell Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2000
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'm actually not certain about the Denon, but the Onkyo (Integra) units bypass all DSPs, equalization, crossovers, and bass management (they don't even output to the sub pre-out). All you get is untainted stereo output to the amplifier. I would imagine that Denon's units would be similar. I hope this helps.
     
  3. Bryan Acevedo

    Bryan Acevedo Second Unit

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    290
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The Denon Direct mode bypasses all Digital processing, but invokes an analog crossover for the sub, so it still gets bass. I think there is also a high pass analog crossover for the mains. But, if you adjust the sub level all the way down, there is one more setting of off, that turns the sub signal off completely, and gives the mains a full range signal. So you can have it either way, and not have any Digital processing at all.

    Bryan
     
  4. Andrew_B

    Andrew_B Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    With the sub level turned down all the way to off, the mains will get the full signal even if they are set to small in the menu? The sub is great for movies, but I'd rather not use it for music.
     
  5. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 1999
    Messages:
    3,134
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Andrew,

    The Denon removes all high pass filtering from the main speakers,even if they were set to "small" in the main speaker menu.As Brian said however the Denon employs an analog domain lowpass filter for the sub,which can be turned off if you wanted.In any case the mains are revert to "large" in direct mode,in any configuration.

    What kinda sub,and main speakers you have if you don't mind my asking?
     
  6. Andrew_B

    Andrew_B Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Lewis and Bryan,

    Thanks a lot for the responses. That cleared up much confusion on my part. I was hoping to find a way to have the sub get all the low frequency sounds for tv and movies, but just use the mains for music and I now have that. It's too hard to precisely match the sub level and I found my CDs were sounding "different".

    And Lewis, my main speakers are Paradigm Studio 80s and my sub is a Paradigm Servo 15.
     
  7. Mickey Brown

    Mickey Brown Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2001
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I thought only the 4800 and above had a true direct mode. I thought they 3800 series and below had 'tone defeat' which removed tone controls, but still digitized the analog input for xovering...

    At least that was what the 3801 had. Have they changed for the 3802?
     
  8. Chuck Kent

    Chuck Kent Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    May 29, 1999
    Messages:
    983
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Mickey: The 2 channel analog bypass for the front mains in ALL Denons has never been digitized. But I'm fairly sure that the sub's crossover does remain digital.

    Lewis is correct that when in Direct mode, the mains are never highpassed. It's my understanding though that when in Direct mode, the sub's crossover receives it's signal from a parallel analog split. The sub feed is then low passed through the sub's digital lowpass circuitry.
     
  9. Gil D

    Gil D Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 1999
    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    According to David Birch-Jones of Denon in his rebuttal to The Perfect Vision's (July/August 2001) review of the Denon AVR3801:

     
  10. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 1999
    Messages:
    3,134
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
     
  11. Chuck Kent

    Chuck Kent Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    May 29, 1999
    Messages:
    983
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Lewis, would you believe that both you and (former) Denon Dave are right?

    You are 100% correct that the Direct mode is not highpassed. But if you read the quote closely, you'll note that Denon Dave says just analog bypass (not specifically Direct.)

    This is because ALL Denons, when placed into "2 channel" analog mode, do not run the mains signals through any digital conversion. It remains analog from input to output. (I verified this a couple of years ago by having an aquaintance of mine trace the 2 channel circuit path of his 5700.) So, when in 2 channel analog mode (because of the parallel signal path) a full set of both highpass and lowpass filters are available (as are the analog tone controls.) (Don't forget though that the sub's lowpass is apparently a digital one.)

    From what I can glean from all of this is that the main difference between plain analog bypass and Direct is that the highpass crossover and tone controls are bypassed in Direct mode (for a more pure signal path.)
     
  12. Gil D

    Gil D Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 1999
    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
     
  13. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 1999
    Messages:
    3,134
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Chuck,

    I have only "Stereo" and Direct,as a 2 ch only modes on my 3801.Is "Stereo" the analog bypass,provided it's connected through the analog connections?

    I knew that the "stereo" uses the bass managment,just like the rest of the modes,however,I didn't know that it was in the analog domain[highpass].

    However the tone controlls are active during this.

    Thanks for the info!
     
  14. Bill Harada

    Bill Harada Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1997
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Lewis,

    Analog is set in the Inputs (i.e., Auto, PCM, DTS, Analog, Ext. In). As far as I can tell, Analog can be set in conjunction with any listening mode you choose.

    Bill
     
  15. Bryan Acevedo

    Bryan Acevedo Second Unit

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    290
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks for the clarification guys. I was stating what I remembered reading somewhere (in the manual for the 3801 I believe).

    It seems that it is a confusing subject!

    Bryan
     
  16. Darrin_R

    Darrin_R Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Andrew

    You said your CD's were sounding 'different'. I know exactly what you mean. With everything calibrated correctly on my Denon, my cd's didnt have the low end punch they once had. I found that there was a huge dip around 100hz when I use an analog connection. It caused the bass to lose all of its detail. I hooked up the cd player using the digital connection and.........smooth, punchy bass.

    I dont know what Denon does with its analog signal path, but its not right.
     
  17. Tom C

    Tom C Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2001
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    10
    Andrew,

    I have the Denon 3300. I originally had my CD player hook up through the analog connection. I was never happy with the sound (especially the bass), direct or no direct. I’ve been very happy with it since I’ve hooked it up with the digital connection. If you have a digital output on your CD layer, I’d recommend using it instead.
     
  18. Andrew_B

    Andrew_B Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Darrin,

    With the sub set down to off with the direct mode, the sound is just as good as it was with my 2 channel amp. I don't notice the dip, but I'll pull out my Avia and check it out anyway.

    Tom,

    I've tried the using a digital connection and using the DACs on the 3802, but I like the sound of the DACs on the cd player better. (It's a Sony CDP-M555ES if you were curious)
     
  19. John Royster

    John Royster Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2001
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'm with Andrew on this one.

    In my setup the CD player input uses DIRECT mode with the subwoofer off. But my mains are substantial towers and I do NOT want the sub to play. I did not notice any loss of bass at all but normal levels compared to when I had just CD player and amps.
     
  20. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 1999
    Messages:
    3,134
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
     

Share This Page