Denon 3801 vs 3802 (1 Viewer)

[Kieran Coghlan]

Bryan and Mark:
Both of you have a slight misunderstanding about what you're referring to as "reference" volume on the Denons. Just because the indicator reads "zero dB" doesn't mean that this is reference volume. Reference volume can only be found using a SPL meter of some sort. IIRC, Dolby reference is pink noise at 75dB. The chances of buying a receiver, any receiver, hooking it up in YOUR home and having it's "0 dB" mark on the dial coincide with 75dB in your room is remarkably small. Variations in room size, furniture, wall treatments, carpet, speakers efficiency (this alone is probably the biggest factor) and numerous other factors, mean that there is no correlation between the number you see on the dial, and the actual measured volume in one room versus another. The only way to determine what point on the volume dial represents "reference" volume is to use pink noise and a spl meter, and then note the dial position when you get 75 dB from the listening position. MARK: This is true no matter if the receiver is THX certified or not.
The volume (or attenuation) dial on a receiver controls the power levels. The dB shown on the display is not an indication of volume. Rather it is a relative indication of average power, but the numbers themselves are essentially meaningless. (Thus my remark about "but mine goes to ELEVEN!") If Mark has speakers that have an efficiency of 80 dB/w/m, and Bryan has speakers that are 90 dB/w/m, and everything else is the same, then Mark's system is going to be quieter for the SAME volume knob position. It's that simple.
Now, if your Denon(s) Bryan, are still putting out audible sound with the volume dial ALL THE WAY DOWN, then that's fine, it's just surprising. Most receivers I have used, are essentially muted when you turn the dial all the way counter-clockwise. Personally, I would hate having a receiver whose volume I couldn't turn all the way to silent, even with my ear pressed against the speaker.
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-Kieran
My HT Page

 

[Mike Sheahan]

Mark, y** really seem to have a hang-up with those "cheapo plastic knobs".
Y** make that Rolex statement, and then follow it up with "just kidding disregard it", when all y** really needed to do is hit the delete key a few times if y** didn't want us to "regard" it.
Y**'ve been taking shots at the 3802 since the day it came out. Yet the worst y** can find on it are LFE crossovers that are set too high, and some plastic knobs.
Y** seem to show a need to get under peoples skin.
[Edited last by Mike Sheahan on August 27, 2001 at 05:42 PM]
[Edited last by Mike Sheahan on August 27, 2001 at 05:43 PM]
[Edited last by Mike Sheahan on August 27, 2001 at 05:49 PM]

 

[John-D]

Mike,
I'm sure the admins will remind you that personal attacks are a no-no at this forum.... all of your four paragraphs start with 'Y**'

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The things we own end up owning us
[Edited last by John-D on August 28, 2001 at 11:22 AM]

 

[Bryan Acevedo]

Kieran,
Thanks for the explanation, but I already understand this, you must not understand what the Denon volume controls are like (Or Yamaha).
I have an SPL meter, and at a marking of -3 on my reciever, I get 85db (which is true reference level with the signals I am using. Avia: -13 is 75db, and -3 is 85db). So in essence, my -70db is really 67db below reference. Each change of the volume on the Denon and Yamaha receivers is representative of the db change from 0. Now, 0 on one receiver may be 75db, and on another it may be 85 db - I got that. But on MY receiver, 0 is about 88 DB. So it is close enough to call my -70 setting 70 db below reference levels. I guess it is just a terminology difference. Also, my reciever goes down one step further and displays -- on the volume display - it is totally muted, no sound what so ever.
The difference is that on the 3801 - it went -60 to --, now I can go another 10 steps quieter before I get the --. Now at -70db, it is very, very quiet. -60db is quite a bit louder, relatively speaking.
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You said:
The volume (or attenuation) dial on a receiver controls the power levels. The dB shown on the display is not an indication of volume. Rather it is a relative indication of average power, but the numbers themselves are essentially meaningless. (Thus my remark about "but mine goes to ELEVEN!") If Mark has speakers that have an efficiency of 80 dB/w/m, and Bryan has speakers that are 90 dB/w/m, and everything else is the same, then Mark's system is going to be quieter for the SAME volume knob position. It's that simple.
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This isn't true about the Denon or Yamaha receivers.
Other manufacturers just have random numbers to indicate power levels, but Denon and Yamaha (there may be others, I don't know) indicate the volume as a delta from the 0 (or what I am calling the reference mark). So a volume setting on my receiver of -40, really means 40db lower than at 0, not just some random number. This isn't just coincidence, and if Mike's receiver and my receiver are calibrated to 85 db (or 75db) at 0, then at -35, we will both be playing at 50 db (or 40db) pink noise, regardless of what receiver or speakers we have. Because both of our volume controls say -35, not some number from 1 through 10. This is done so you can easily find that reference level volume again. If I want reference levels, I just turn it up to -13 (or -3 depending on what ref levels we are talking about), and I am set.
See what I mean?
I hope that cleared that up.
Bryan

 

[Mike Sheahan]

Mark,
I know why people will choose the 3802, for the same reason I did. The 3801 will be getting harder and harder to find.
As I've stated in another thread, I looked locally for the 3801, but could find only demos. Then I looked to a few places online, and was told they had no more, and weren't getting anymore. Then I was offered the 3802 for $100 more than the best price I could find on a nonexistent 3801, so I took it.
The 80, 100, and 120Hz crossover is most likely aimed at people who would purchase a mid priced receiver (like these two), to team with small mid priced satellite speakers and a sub combo. People with good and expensive full range speakers are going to buy one or two grades higher in the receiver market. Most of the small satellite speakers can't produce sound much below 100hz anyway, and pass that duty on to the sub.
I've found that with my Klipsch RF-3's, (which are rated to 37Hz) setting my mains to Large, and the LFE to SUB only, instead of SUB+Main, takes care of this problem. My mains aren't being crossed at 80Hz then, and yet my sub still takes care of all the LFE signal.
The most important aspect that the 3801 and 3802 offered to me is the full seven channels of amplification. If it weren't for that I would have gone with the 797 from Onkyo.
Plastic knobs played absolutely no part in my decision on this receiver, and frankly I find it absurd to use this against a piece of equipment that costs only $800.