Denon 1600, can I do better for the money?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Brian Johnston, Jun 26, 2002.

  1. Brian Johnston

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    I have been waiting for months now to get a new DVD player (PS2 just not cutting it), and finally pulled the trigger on the Denon 1600 this past weekend.
    I had my concerns about it (flicker bug specifically) but figured the only way to know for sure was to take one home and try it in my system (Sony XBR450). After a few days of playing with it I am wondering if I could do better for the money. I tried Toy Story and have now seen the flicker bug for myself (I could live with it or just swith to interlaced, but why should I have to?) Other than Shrek, I am yet to see a drastic improvement in video quality over the PS2, okay it is better but not worth the price of the player.
    I didn't really want DVD-A or SACD, but it seemed everything I looked at had one or the other. Now I see that the bass management on the 1600 is sub-par (has to send LFE to all channels), I know I said I am not interested in the format, but if I have it, I would like it to be better executed.
    I am quite pleased with the CD performance.

    Am I asking too much of this player, or has this forum taught me to expect more?

    I have 4 days to return for a full refund, any suggestions on how I might do better for less than 800 CDN?

    Thanks,
    Brian.
     
  2. Neil Weinstock

    Neil Weinstock Stunt Coordinator

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    Could you describe the DVD-A bass management in the Denon (and its deficiencies) a little? I still haven't seen the details.

    It would seem that if you don't want the DVD-A, then at the very least you could get virtually the same player for less than half the price by picking up the Panasonic RP-62. It won't fix anything, but it'll put money back in your wallet.

    I myself am waiting for the new Sony players (655, 755). Of course, the Sony players also have their issues, but still might fit the bill for me.

    For pure video quality (not including de-interlacing performance), many folks still like the Panasonic RP-91 the best, and it's in the same ballpark (pricewise) as the Denon. The JVC players also have excellent reputation for picture quality if you stay in film mode, and are pretty cheap.

    We're all still waiting for the perfect player...
     
  3. Brian Johnston

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    I don't have any DVD-A discs or the 5.1 cables, so I haven't set it up yet, but as I understand it, there are basically 2 options, sub on (100hz and below to sub, + all frequencies to all speakers) or sub off ( all frequencies to all speakers, no sub signal). I will double check the manual when I can and confirm my understanding, but I really don't want to send LFE signals to my surround speakers. Granted there is likely to be less LFE type frequencies in Music than movies, but I would expect more from any kind of bass management.

    I may yet return the Denon, and pick up a Panny when the 62 or 82 come out and then add a quality CD player. I just don't want to wait to long the PS2 is not exactly user friendly.

    Thanks.
     
  4. ReggieW

    ReggieW Screenwriter

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    Brian,

    the Denon 1600 is currently the only DVD-A player that offers any form of bass management. Yes, it isn't much, but it's currently more than other brands are offering (namely none). If you aren't interested in DVD-A/CD playback, then yes, there are other units to be had for half the price of the Denon which look nearly as good image wise. The raves for the 1600 are coming mostly for it's audio capabilities, though the image is outstanding as well. As far as the RP-91 goes, It is still a great player for the money, but it is debatable if the image is better than the 1600's since the Denon uses a better progressive chip. I do like the build quality of the RP-91 better though I am looking to get a 1600 in the coming weeks, as I am looking for a DVD player which excels in the audio arena, something very few player under 500.00 do.

    Reg
     
  5. ReggieW

    ReggieW Screenwriter

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    One other word of advice Brian......

    Do not get to hung up on this bug and that bug ON video players. DVD technology is still in its infancy and there is no perfect player currently out there. No matter how much a reviewer has raved about a player, I've seen owners take issue with them on nearly every single player currently available in one form or another. For example, the dreaded chroma bug was something that most owners never even noticed until they came to this or another forum and found out it existed, and then decided to search for it everytime they popped in a film. To some this may be fine, but for me it is a waste of time. If you think it is something YOU can live with, then enjoy your player, plain and simple.

    Reg
     
  6. Brian Johnston

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    Thanks for the advice Reggie, I am gradually becoming more comfortable with the thought of keeping this player.

    I looked into the DVD-A bass management last night, the manual and on-screen menus are not particularly helpful. There are large and small settings for the front, rear and centre speakers and you can turn the sub on or off. It is not clear exactly the effect of these setting but I am assuming that the small speaker setting will prevent frequencies 100 hz and below from being sent those speakers. So the bass management seems to be better than I initially thought.

    Maybe I can't do better for my money, even if I went with the Panny RP62, and a good CD player, I would probably end up spending more and I would loose DVD-A.

    Brian.
     
  7. Phil Nichols

    Phil Nichols Second Unit

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    Reg,

    I'm not exactly sure what your definition of bass management is, but you might want to take a look on pages 57, 58, and 59 of the instruction manual for the Kenwood Sovereign DV-5700 DVD player. You can take a look at this manual at the Kenwood site. A lot of surround speaker and subwoofer adjustment capability in this player, including speaker timing for the surrounds, SW volume levels, etc..

    Regarding other 5700 performance you may be aware of: The 5700 offers chroma bug free MPEG decoding (Pany decoder), Faroudja DCDi deinterlacing, Faroudja patented adjustable video enhancement, etc., etc., - and is in general a tweakers dream.

    Can be picked up right now for ~$800 or less .... a true bargain.

    (The only reason I don't own one, even at it's introductory price of $1200 last fall, is so trivial it's pathetic.)
     
  8. ReggieW

    ReggieW Screenwriter

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    Thanks Phil,

    I am impressed with the Kenwood 5700 and was set on getting it, and then decided that I did not need a carousel. It is $800.00, so I don't know if this is within Brian's budget. I think the limited bass management available on the Denon 1600 and Kenwood 5700 is really "bass re-direction" as many reviewers have dubbed these limited bass management capabilities. I think Outlaw however, sells a device to handle bass management chores on DVD-A. I think the only two players that currently handle real bass management for DVD-A are the Denon 9000 and 3800 which also have adjustable time alignment. But I agree, for the money the Kenwood can't be beat, but it is still a few hundred more than the Denon. Brian may want to consider the Toshiba 4700 which also has good DVD-A/CD playback for half the money of the Denon, and progressive scan as well.

    Reg
     
  9. ManojM

    ManojM Stunt Coordinator

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    The Denon 1600 is a nice player, and has a very good audio section, but the Kenwood 5700 is significantly better. The other player that I really like in the $500 price arena is the Philips 962 unit. I have reviewed the 985, the DVD recorder with a similar video section to the 962, and I thought the progressive out picture quality was excellent, better than the Denon 1600. Since the 962 video section is actually supposed to be a bit better, I would think that this player would be an excellent choice.
     
  10. DAVE_B

    DAVE_B Auditioning

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    Brian,
    I recently (3 months ago) replaced my Tos sd6200 dvd player with the Denon 1600 and have been very impressed with the quality of picture. I run both in progressive into a Pioneer 53" hd ready set. I was happy with the Toshiba but have always loved denon gear-I'm glad I switched. The colors seem more vibrant and there just seems to be more depth to the picture-even my wife noticed and thats saying something. I find the picture looks more theater like. As far as the flicker- I had heard of it but honestly don't seem to see it where as I could pick up the chroma bug easily.Given the choice between this model and say the more expensive Denon (dvd2800mkII)for the same price I'd stick with this.
     
  11. ManojM

    ManojM Stunt Coordinator

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    BTW Reggie,
    The Toshiba 4700 is not as good at CDs or DVD-A as the Denon 1600 or the Kenwood, and the picture quality is also a step below the Kenwood or the Philips.
     
  12. ReggieW

    ReggieW Screenwriter

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    Thanks ManojM,

    just to clarify, I never said the Toshiba 4700 was as good as the Denon for cd playback, only that it was pretty good for half the going rate of the Denon. As far as Phillips, I've owned them in the past, and there are just to may reliability problems with them to warrant a purchase from me. Perhaps the new models will be better, but I would really have to wait and see on these. The price drop on the Kenwood does make it attractive, but it would've been great if Kenwood had simply made a single disc version of the 5700. I would not be surprised if the audio section of the Kenwood was better than the Denons, seeing that the Kenwood carried a 1,600.000 msrp when it was first released.

    Reg
     
  13. Allan Mack

    Allan Mack Supporting Actor

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    I also have a Sony 36XBR450 TV. Will I notice the flicker bug on the Denon DVD-1600? Are there any pictures on a website illustrating what to look for?
    I'm really interested in this player because of the stellar review the DVD-1600 received over at Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity:
    Denon DVD-1600 review
    Here is a quote from that review:
     
  14. Brian Johnston

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    Allan,

    It is my understanding that the flicker bug only shows itself on very few DVDs. Toy Story is one of these DVDs and if you play it with a the 1600 in progressive mode you will see it. You can't miss it, the bug makes the lid of the tinker toy box appear as though it is moving up and down. However if you turn off prog. and send the interlaced signal to the XBR450, the flicker bug disappears, and in my opinion, with the XBR450, you don't loose any picture quality.

    I have decided that this is not enough of an issue for me to give up on this player, I have been very happy with it's performance on everything else I have thrown at it so far.

    No matter what player you end up with, if you look hard enough you will find something you don't like, (if not just come here, someone will tell you where to look) so make a decision, obviously an informed one if you are a part of this forum, and decide to like whatever player you end up with.

    Best of luck,
    Brian.
     
  15. vishal

    vishal Auditioning

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    Allan Mack:

    The review performed at Secrets for the Denon 1600 was flawed, apparently the reviewer did not perform the tests correctly. The Denon 1600 has the same video chemistry as the Panasonic RP56, and thus has the exact same results.

    I got this information from sspears at AVSFORUM, but I don't remember where the link is. Do a SEARCH!
     
  16. Kevin_Kr

    Kevin_Kr Supporting Actor

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    Return it and get the panasonic rp82 at the beginning of August and save yuorself some money.
     
  17. ReggieW

    ReggieW Screenwriter

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    Kevin KR,

    Why? Have you yet seen any reviews for the RP-82? The Denon 1600 has an audio section superior to that of the RP-91's according to nearly every review I've seen, so I find it unlikely that the RP-82 section will beat the Denon's or even the Rp-91's at its price point. The reviews for the Denon 1600 from buyers and reviewers alike have been outstanding. The Rp-82 does seem attractive for the price, but we'll have to see some reviews before recommending this over a more expensive unit which has received stellar reviews for audio and video.

    Reg
     
  18. Brian Johnston

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    Kevin_Kr,

    I have decided to stick with the Denon, originally I was going to wait for one of the Panasonics, but I couldn't wait any longer. Furthermore, if I were to return the Denon in favour of an RP62 or RP82, I would more than likely spend the money saved in doing so, on a seperate CD player. As mentionned I am quite pleased with the CD performance I am getting from the 1600.

    I have found the longer you wait the more reason you have to wait, there is always something better on the horizon (or just over it), sooner or later you have to decide on something that you can be happy with, this is where I am.

    Brian.
     
  19. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

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    Don't get confused with the bass managment that only operates with DVD-V[I.E.DD and DTS],99% of the players out there doesn't perform BM on DVD-A at all. I'm not sure of the Denon 1600.
    And yes bass redirection is bass managment!
     
  20. vishal

    vishal Auditioning

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    What type of Bass Management does the Kenwood use? How does it compare to the Denon 1600, Thanks!
     

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