DENNIS THE MENACE Season Two Already Announced! (1 Viewer)

[Gary OS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theodore J. Mooney /forum/thread/310493/dennis-the-menace-season-two-already-announced#post_3800068

 

[Rob_Ray]

The trouble with both Bewitched and Dennis the Menace is that when the major characters were replaced, the shows were already past their prime and both Dick York and Joseph Kearns had become indelibly linked to their roles by that point. Likewise in the case of Bewitched, Alice Pearce had nearly stolen the show with her characterization of Gladys Kravitz and when she was replaced by Sandra Gould following her death, the character became a shrill, obnoxious busybody rather than the pitiful but sympathetic Gladys she had been.


However Billie Jo and Bobbie Jo of the early Petticoat Junction years had been little more than beautiful, talented eye candy before Meredith MacRae and Lori Saunders brought some dimensionality to the roles in the later seasons. Lori, in particular, had a flair for wacky comedy that was exploited more and more as the years progressed. I'd be in for the entire run of Petticoat Junction, even the nearly two years without Bea Benederet. I'll probably get the last season of Dennis for the sake of completeness but that last season isn't a must-have. Ditto Hazel, if it ever gets to that point. Hazel without Don DeFore is like Dennis without Joseph Kearns for me.

 

[Jeff Willis]

Agree on both Dennis the Menace and Hazel examples. I'm a Bewitched fan but wouldn't have added the Sergeant years, without receiving those seasons at Christmas, to my collection for the same reasons as Gary mentioned.


I remember Dennis the Menace from its original airing and imo the show lost a lot after Kearns passed away. The replacement didn't do it for me in this series. I'll pass on S4 unless I am able to get it added to a Christmas list 2-3 years from now.


Most shows, I'm in agreement with Gary's take. "Alias Smith and Jones" was another one that imo lost a lot of its steam after Pete Duel passed away and was replaced.

 

[Gary OS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob_Ray

The trouble with both Bewitched and Dennis the Menace is that when the major characters were replaced, the shows were already past their prime and both Dick York and Joseph Kearns had become indelibly linked to their roles by that point. Likewise in the case of Bewitched, Alice Pearce had nearly stolen the show with her characterization of Gladys Kravitz and when she was replaced by Sandra Gould following her death, the character became a shrill, obnoxious busybody rather than the pitiful but sympathetic Gladys she had been.


However Billie Jo and Bobbie Jo of the early Petticoat Junction years had been little more than beautiful, talented eye candy before Meredith MacRae and Lori Saunders brought some dimensionality to the roles in the later seasons. Lori, in particular, had a flair for wacky comedy that was exploited more and more as the years progressed. I'd be in for the entire run of Petticoat Junction, even the nearly two years without Bea Benederet. I'll probably get the last season of Dennis for the sake of completeness but that last season isn't a must-have. Ditto Hazel, if it ever gets to that point. Hazel without Don DeFore is like Dennis without Joseph Kearns for me.

Originally Posted by Jeff Willis

Agree on both Dennis the Menace and Hazel examples. I'm a Bewitched fan but wouldn't have added the Sergeant years, without receiving those seasons at Christmas, to my collection for the same reasons as Gary mentioned.


I remember Dennis the Menace from its original airing and imo the show lost a lot after Kearns passed away. The replacement didn't do it for me in this series. I'll pass on S4 unless I am able to get it added to a Christmas list 2-3 years from now.


Most shows, I'm in agreement with Gary's take. "Alias Smith and Jones" was another one that imo lost a lot of its steam after Pete Duel passed away and was replaced.

Very good point about the Bradley girls, Rob. And spot on comments about more cast changes in Bewitched and Hazel. Jeff pointed out another with Alias Smith and Jones. Sometimes a cast change didn't bother me, but the vast majority of the time it did. Dennis the Menace is definitely one of those times.



Gary "bring on Season Two" O.

 

[Radioman970]

I started watching Bewitched when Sergeant was already Darin. Never bothered me to see the ones with York though.

Now, Roseanne changed the oldest daughter to a girl that looked nothing like the original. But they had fun with that later on.

 

[LeoA]

Having ran through season 4 a year ago or so, I'd argue that it wasn't Dennis causing all the problems. It seemed to typically be the new Mr. Wilson, in his fear of the reputation Dennis has for causing trouble, that ends up causing most of the problems that season when he overreacts, tries to avoid Dennis, etc. It's typically self inflicted that season, rather than being directly tied to the childhood antics of Dennis.


So they seemed to have adapted it to better suit a older Dennis character. Still, if someone doesn't care for those episodes, they don't care for them. Even though I'll be in for the whole run and like several of the season 4 episodes, it's hard to argue that the series wasn't far inferior to how it was with Joseph Kearns.


Even the introduction used for season 4 was poor compared to the early seasons.

 

[Joe Lugoff]

DENNIS THE MENACE changed prior to Season 4, anyway. I believe it might have started with Season 3 when they decided Dennis wasn't a good role model for the nation's kids, so instead of being a mischief maker, he became a do-gooder whose well-meaning plans often backfired, usually through no fault of his own. I prefer the earlier episodes, even though in real life, I'm sure we'd prefer neighbor kids more like Dennis Version 2.0.

 

[Theodore J. Mooney]

Originally Posted by Gary OS

I recall that the same thing happened to both the Beaver and Wally characters on Leave it to Beaver. I noticed that the storylines began to focus more and more on the typical teen issues towards the end of the run of that series. In a way, it didn't feel like the same series as the way it began, at least, to me.


I would have loved to see a Christmas episode in season 4. But considering that Dennis the Menace already had three Christmas shows in the can, I guess the writers probably thought it didn't need another one. Oh well, three Christmas episodes is better than one or even worse ... none like Leave it to Beaver.

 

[Theodore J. Mooney]

Originally Posted by Gary OS

I can see how it can be difficult for viewers to accept a different actor playing an already-established role in a series. It's the mentality that we can't imagine anyone else in a role but the original actor. With me, it doesn't take away the enjoyment I get from the show unless 1) it's the main star that is being replaced and 2) the show revolves around the main star's character. It would be like having no Lucille Ball in The Lucy Show; it just wouldn't work because she was THE show. It's the same token with Elizabeth Montegomery and Bewitched, John Ritter and Three's Company, Redd Foxx and Sanford and Son, ect. They were all the main ingredients that binded and held the rest of the ingredients together on their programs. When it comes to Bewitched, I enjoy the years with Dick Sargeant as by this time the show focuses more on the supporting characters such as Tabitha, Uncle Arthur, Dr. Bombay, Serena, Esmeralda, ect. rather than the relationship between Darrin and Samantha.


Back to cast changes .... depending on the show, I usually give it just a chance after the cast change. In most cases, I generally have found that enjoy the show just about the same as I did before. I think it's just a matter of adjusting and accepting a change.

 

[Gary OS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theodore J. Mooney

I recall that the same thing happened to both the Beaver and Wally characters on Leave it to Beaver. I noticed that the storylines began to focus more and more on the typical teen issues towards the end of the run of that series. In a way, it didn't feel like the same series as the way it began, at least, to me.


I would have loved to see a Christmas episode in season 4. But considering that Dennis the Menace already had three Christmas shows in the can, I guess the writers probably thought it didn't need another one. Oh well, three Christmas episodes is better than one or even worse ... none like Leave it to Beaver.

I won't even try to defend LITB as to your second paragraph about no Christmas episode. I've lamented that fact for many a year now and gone on record here as being extremely disappointed on that front. However, I would take issue with your first paragraph. I think it's apples and oranges trying to compare Wally & Beaver growing up to Dennis. The reason being that LITB was not based on an already popular comic strip character that had a penchant for getting in trouble all the time and being very mischievous. Leave it to Beaver was simply about 2 brothers growing up, and consequently dealing with issues relevant to their ever-increasing ages. Dennis the Menace had a set story to tell and it could only go so far as Jay North grew up.

I'd buy Dennis the Menace Season Four if I even liked it a little. The absence of a Christmas episode is really neither here nor there with me. I was only joking about that, thus the grin emoticon.


Gary "my biggest issue with the last season had less to do with Jay North growing up and more to do with the absence of Kearns" O.

 

[Gary OS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theodore J. Mooney

I can see how it can be difficult for viewers to accept a different actor playing an already-established role in a series. It's the mentality that we can't imagine anyone else in a role but the original actor. With me, it doesn't take away the enjoyment I get from the show unless 1) it's the main star that is being replaced and 2) the show revolves around the main star's character. It would be like having no Lucille Ball in The Lucy Show; it just wouldn't work because she was THE show. It's the same token with Elizabeth Montegomery and Bewitched, John Ritter and Three's Company, Redd Foxx and Sanford and Son, ect. Anyways, depending on the show, I usually give it just a chance after the cast change. In most cases, I generally have found that enjoy the show just about the same as I did before. I think it's just a matter of adjusting and accepting a change.

Two things: 1) I'd say Kearns was an integral part of the series along with Jay North. He was involved in just about every episode. 2) I'm not as forgiving of cast changes as you are, perhaps because of my upbringing. Some disclosure is needed to make my point, so here it goes. My parents divorced when I was less than four years old and my Mom took me away from all my relatives and neighborhood friends by moving her and myself many states away. Since I was an only child I didn't even have siblings to make the trip easier. It was just me and her and I was a latchkey kid from 1st grade on. We moved about every two to three years from one spot in the Tampa Bay area to another, causing me to change schools regularly and lose friends often. TV was a real refuge for me, a place of stability where I could count on seeing the same friends in similar surroundings week in and week out. Maybe that explains why cast changes bothered me more than the average TV fan. I just know I hated seeing people, especially main characters, leave a show. It's almost never sat well with me.



Gary "I can appreciate it if cast changes don't bother some people, as we are all wired differently - but for me Kearns being gone from DTM was too big a change" O.

 

[Theodore J. Mooney]

Originally Posted by Gary OS

Quote:


I won't even try to defend LITB as to your second paragraph about no Christmas episode. I've lamented that fact for many a year now and gone on record here as being extremely disappointed on that front. However, I would take issue with your first paragraph. I think it's apples and oranges trying to compare Wally & Beaver growing up to Dennis. The reason being that LITB was not based on an already popular comic strip character that had a penchant for getting in trouble all the time and being very mischievous. Leave it to Beaver was simply about 2 brothers growing up, and consequently dealing with issues relevant to their ever-increasing ages. Dennis the Menace had a set story to tell and it could only go so far as Jay North grew up.

I'd buy Dennis the Menace Season Four if I even liked it a little. The absence of a Christmas episode is really neither here nor there with me. I was only joking about that, thus the grin emoticon.


Gary "my biggest issue with the last season had less to do with Jay North growing up and more to do with the absence of Kearns" O.

So you would say that Leave it to Beaver was or more less a coming-of-age series? Would you compare it to a more recent classic like The Wonder Years?


The way I understood it, the premise behind the Leave it to Beaver show was to give the viewer a glimpse of a young boy's point of view in life. I think the show grew out of the premise once Wally and Beaver hit puberty and became adolescenses. I mean can you imagine a young boy having a driver's license and owning a car? Or a boy suddenly becoming interested in the opposite sex and wanting to go out on dates? Or a boy having a voice of that of a man? I don't think so. Those later years I thought embraced a different view - one of an adolescense.

Anyways, both shows are one in the same in the respect that they give us a perspective of a boy's life whether it is a goody-to-shoes or a menace.

 

[Gary OS]

At this point I'll opt for the "agree to disagree" adage and leave it at that.



Gary "all I know is I love North and Kearns working together, and just can't get into the show when J.K. isn't there" O.

 

[Rob_Ray]

Dennis the Menace was trapped from the outset because of its title. If it's not hard for a teenager to be a "menace", it certainly isn't entertaining. It reminds me of something some comedian (I've forgotten who) once said about the "Home Alone" franchise that seemed to keep going in the early 90s. "It can't go on forever. What's the big deal about a 26 year old man being home alone?"

 

[LeoA]

It's been a while since I watched it, but they wrote in Joseph Kearns taking a pretty good fall in the final episode he did (Maybe from a basement window?) and I always wondered if that contributed in anyway to him passing away a few hours later.


Was the same day I think when they aired one of his last episodes about writing up his will. Odd how the timing worked out.

 

[Joe Lugoff]

I've always been amazed that as early in TV history as 1956, when Jean Hagen quit Make Room for Daddy, instead of just replacing her, they had it that her character of Margaret Williams had died over the summer. There was no episode showing the family mourning .... when he returned in the Fall, Danny Williams was just a widower. And the next season, he married his second wife.


I wonder how it would have gone over if the first Darrin had died and Samantha got a second husband for the sixth season!


I just don't like the idea of beloved TV characters dying. I think Archie Bunker's Place made a terrible mistake by having Edith Bunker die. Things like that take the com out of sitcom.

 

[Gary OS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob_Ray

Dennis the Menace was trapped from the outset because of its title. If it's not hard for a teenager to be a "menace", it certainly isn't entertaining. It reminds me of something some comedian (I've forgotten who) once said about the "Home Alone" franchise that seemed to keep going in the early 90s. "It can't go on forever. What's the big deal about a 26 year old man being home alone?"

Thank you, Rob! You made the point I was trying to make, but you did it succinctly and worded it better than I ever could have. I now direct Mike (aka Theodore J. Mooney) to read your post for an explanation of why Dennis didn't work as Jay North got older, and why DTM and LITB are not to be compared.

Originally Posted by LeoAmes

I've always been amazed that as early in TV history as 1956, when Jean Hagen quit Make Room for Daddy, instead of just replacing her, they had it that her character of Margaret Williams had died over the summer. There was no episode showing the family mourning .... when he returned in the Fall, Danny Williams was just a widower. And the next season, he married his second wife.


I wonder how it would have gone over if the first Darrin had died and Samantha got a second husband for the sixth season!


I just don't like the idea of beloved TV characters dying. I think Archie Bunker's Place made a terrible mistake by having Edith Bunker die. Things like that take the com out of sitcom.

I agree that using death as the reason for a character's absence, especially on a sitcom, is a poor choice of explanation. That just exasperates the problem all the more in my book. If an actor dies in real life, or the person decides to move on and not play the part any more, it's much better to say they moved away or something similar. I realize that's harder when a TV spouse or member of the family is the one that's "disappeared", but death really is the ultimate downer on a series that is built around laughter and good times.



Gary "great comments all the way around - thanks guys!" O.

 

[Rob_Ray]

Originally Posted by Gary OS


I agree that using death as the reason for a character's absence, especially on a sitcom, is a poor choice of explanation. That just exasperates the problem all the more in my book. If an actor dies in real life, or the person decides to move on and not play the part any more, it's much better to say they moved away or something similar. I realize that's harder when a TV spouse or member of the family is the one that's "disappeared", but death really is the ultimate downer on a series that is built around laughter and good times.

Well, at the risk of turning this thread into a rather morbid one, I have to comment. It's a difficult choice when a key cast member departs for whatever reason. When Jean Stapleton wanted out of Archie Bunker's Place, their only choices were to kill her off or only refer to her off-screen in the tradition of Gladys on December Bride and Norm's wife on Cheers. The latter choice would have made more sense. Just keep virtually all the action in the bar without seeing Archie at home and you've largely solved the problem and kept open the possibility that Jean Stapleton might be persuaded to return for a guest shot sometime.


Danny Thomas could have recast Margaret a la Darren on Bewitched and it probably would have worked. Killing her off and then almost pretending she never existed doesn't work.


Recasting Darren was the only viable solution to Dick York's departure. There's no way Samantha could divorce Darren or that he could die and she married another mortal. At its core, that show's theme was that love conquered all and that Sam and Darren's unique once-in-a-lifetime love was more powerful than all the witchcraft in the world. Sam without Darren is a completely different show.


The toughest call was the one faced by Petticoat Junction. As Bea Benederet battled lung cancer in real life, Kate was off taking care of her sick aunt, which fooled nobody, as her illness was all over the news. Bea was the heart and soul of that show. In fact, in the beginning, it was a star vehicle for her from Paul Henning who worked with her for decades prior and wanted to showcase her talent. There was no way Kate could be recast. And the only way she could leave the girls, Uncle Joe and that hotel was unfortunately, feet first. They handled that tragedy almost as expertly as they could. The only thing I would have added is, I would have liked to have seen a clip show episode as a tribute to Bea in which the either the characters had a Irish-style wake (filled with toasts and happy memories of good times with Kate) or in which the actors themselves, out of character, saluted Bea.

 

[LeoA]

Sometimes I think death is necessary to be mentioned, such as the Petticoat Junction example..


As a fan of Petticoat Junction and placing myself in that world and family setting, there's simply no other explanation to explain why Kate Bradley isn't at the Shady Rest any longer or why Charley Pratt isn't at the throttle of the Hooterville Cannonball. You couldn't write them off as having moved away since it's simply 100% unbelievable due to the picture they painted of the characters for the viewer.


So that seemed like the only way they could've went, although they didn't go overboard with either like The Walton's did. They mention one of the rooms upstairs as being the Kate Bradley Memorial Suite in one of the episodes after her death and Floyd yells all aboard in another and Kate ask him why since he's also now the engineer, and he explains that he does it to pretend for a moment that Charley was still there in the cab (Probably the saddest moment of the series).


Now with Charley gone, when Rufe Davis left the show for a while, it's a bit more understandable since he's lost his closest friend that he worked with throughout his carieer. It was possible to write him off without having death be the cause without contradicting how they had written his character throughout the series.