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Dead or Alive 6

Discussion in 'Gaming' started by Bryan^H, Mar 9, 2019.

  1. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    As much as I agree that there is a weird distinction in which is acceptable in America versus which is considered too obscene for mass consumption, the MK11 point is about violence while the DOA stuff is about sex. I don't believe there's any content in MK11 that would violate Sony's rules because the rules are about sex.

    The fact that the violence is males hurting females is actually a gross misrepresentation of the actual product. There is male/male and female/female violence as well. There's no sexism point to be made about MK11's violence.

    Conversely, I don't know how much of the argument about DOA even revolves around the sexism part of it, since men are shown in similar contexts. That said, the focus is DEFINITELY on the women as sexual objects, there are very few male characters compared to the women, and the discussion here seems almost exclusively focused on present company being upset about the toned-down sexual representation of the female characters.

    On that note, I wonder how much uproar we'd see here if DOA removed a penis from the American release, versus just some lotion items?
     
  2. Message #42 of 59 Apr 9, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
    Bryan^H

    Bryan^H Producer

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    I really worry that Japanese game developers will start to change their style exclusively for the North American market. I know a lot of the games wouldn't even be considered for a release in the U.S. and that in my opinion is a shame. Some games are so groundbreaking, and weird, and wonderful. Art in the truest sense. This game never got a U.S. release for example:



    Nothing harmful. Nothing hateful. Just a pleasantly odd VR game.
    https://www.roadtovr.com/summer-lesson-for-playstation-vr-made-me-feel-like-a-creep-and-thats-a-good-thing/
    "There I was, in VR, worried about having invaded the personal space of a virtual character, and yet all the same, unable to turn off that natural human instinct despite knowing full well that she was nothing more than ones and zeros."

    This is exactly what gaming should be. An immersive, interactive experience that makes the player feel as thought they are inside the game.
     
  3. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    I'm unsure what point you're trying to make with Summer Lesson, considering it didn't come out in America for reasons unrelated to Sony's policies for content.
     
  4. Bryan^H

    Bryan^H Producer

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    The point that it did not come out in America.
     
  5. Message #45 of 59 Apr 9, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
    Bryan^H

    Bryan^H Producer

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  6. Bryan^H

    Bryan^H Producer

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    And with that I am done with this thread.
    For the love of everything beautiful please let this thread die.
     
  7. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    So they didn't release it out of fear that people would see it as creepy and not like it? Or they didn't release it because there wasn't enough business case to justify the cost? Or they didn't release it because Sony stopped them through censorship?

    Regardless...there are tons of games that don't make their way to every market. Not all of them are for reasons beyond "business."

    EDIT: You also left out a good amount of context for Summer Lesson not being released in the US. First off, the director gave 2 reasons for no release, including the lip-synching issue that would be required for another language. Second, his full quote about "people who can't set aside the game and the actual problems in society" sounded more like he was worried that people would complain that the game lacked diversity, not that it had creepy content.

    Which moves this game even further from the argument you're trying to make.

    Let me ask you this: why did it take until like 3 years ago for Earthbound Zero to get a US release? Why did Nintendo never release StarFox 2? Why didn't Final Fantasy II or III for the original NES get released in the US in the 1980s? Was it censorship? Fear that gamers would get upset because of social issues? Or...financial reasons, like fear of low sales?
     
  8. Bryan^H

    Bryan^H Producer

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    Summer Lesson didn't get an American release because it is considered too sexist for American audiences. End of story.

    Edit:

    Morgan when I said "let this thread die" What I meant was Let this thread die.

    I missed the post where you said "Fine with me" but I'm sure that is what you meant to say instead of trolling me some more.
     
  9. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    Sorry, I missed the part where it became my fault that you kept responding to this discussion.

    The specific quote from the director suggested that Summer Lesson didn't get a release because the publisher or developer decided it would somehow get mired in controversy, specifically one involving the lack of race or gender options. There was NOTHING in his quote to suggest it was for sexism but rather for the lack of diversity. And...I mean...he's partially right. If the goal of the game is about teaching a Japanese student to speak or write English, then it makes sense that she's Japanese and there would be no controversy. But if the game was about a broader topic or included multiple characters, then it would be a good idea to have some diversity in the cast.

    Oh wait, it does have multiple characters AND almost zero diversity!

    Also, the decision to not bring the game to America was not Sony's decision. This is where censorship completely leaves the conversation. The fear of people openly and publicly disliking your game should not be enough motivation to withhold release if you actually think the game would sell well enough. At worst, this was a Japanese developer misunderstanding the American market's receptiveness to weird niche games.

    Just because you don't like the criticism that could arise does not mean it's unfair or wrong. It's actually on-point. Japanese developers have a very different view of the rest of the world, and a very different view than the rest of the world, that should be both understood in context as well as accurately called out for what it is when the label fits.

    For example: DoA games are sexist. This is a fact. You're still allowed to enjoy them.
     
  10. Bryan^H

    Bryan^H Producer

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    How about we agree to disagree and stop the bickering?
     
  11. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    Works for me!
     
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  12. Jeff Cooper

    Jeff Cooper Cinematographer

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    I think we're just talking about different things here. Sony choosing what or what not to allow on their console is not censorship. It's just them deciding what to allow. You don't find XXX videos in a Blockbuster, and that has nothing to do with censorship.

    But when Sony says 'Ok we'll put that on our console, but only if you modify it from the original version that's available everywhere else', then that is the definition of censorship.


    Oh come on. This may be the most ridiculous claim yet. If I go into a store and there are say two versions of the same adult video next to each other, one is completely graphic and one is completely pixellated/blurred over the naughty bits, does that mean the pixellated version is not censored because the uncensored version is easily available right next to it? :rolling-smiley:
     
  13. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    Jeff - I think your logic is flawed here. You think Sony saying "no boobs" (just to use a specific rhetorical idea) is totally fine and NOT censorship, but Koei Tecmo removing the boobs from the game so that Sony will allow it IS censorship? Is it censorship if Sony says "remove the boobs" but not censorship if Koei Tecmo says "we won't get on the PS4 with boobs, so let's pre-emptively remove them?" By your reasoning, which didn't include a lot of detail, it almost sounds like you're knocking Sony because they allowed any version of the game AT ALL rather than holding to their guns and saying the game couldn't be on the platform.

    By your second point, let me ask this: did you get upset when they released a special PG-13 version of Deadpool 2 in theaters a few months ago?
     
  14. Jeff Cooper

    Jeff Cooper Cinematographer

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    Pretty much. I'd say that first paragraph is exactly what I'm saying except the part about pre-emptively removing the boobs.

    And no I didn't get upset about PG-13 version of Deadpool, because that is exactly what they set about to create.

    Basically my viewpoints can be summed up as follows: Creator creates content that reflects what they wanted to make = good, not censorship. Creator forced to compromise their vision and alter what they want to release by outside entity = bad, censorship. Whatever the content is is irrelevant.
     
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  15. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    Sorry, but I don't really see there being a huge difference between something like a movie studio forcing a director to tone down content of a movie to reach a PG-13 rating (which ensures broader release and ticket sales; I'm not necessarily talking about the Deadpool 2 thing here) and a developer opting to release a "censored" version of their game on PS4 (while releasing the "uncensored" version on XB, Switch, and PC) to ensure that it can be released on that platform.

    If all movie theaters in the US say that they will refuse to ever run NC-17 movies, so directors start chopping content to make their NC-17 movies suddenly become only rated R, is that censorship? The creators can still make whatever films they want, they're just not guaranteed access to certain specific venues with large audiences. I don't see that as censorship. To me, censorship means that there is literally no way at all that the creator is allowed to make their original vision available because of some legal reason, but I tend to see censorship as basically only existing if it's government-enforced.

    KT wants to put a game on Sony's platform. They need to abide by Sony's rules. Sony's rules are slightly more strict that someone else's rules. I have no problem with that.
     
  16. Jeff Cooper

    Jeff Cooper Cinematographer

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    Fair enough. We have different viewpoints and that's fine. Anyway back on the original topic, I think the toning down of 'boob physics' in Dead or Alive is kind of silly because that's what the franchise is known for. It would be like if the next Mortal Kombat removed all the fatalities. In both cases, you would still have a competent well produced mechanically sound fighter that plays exactly the same, but it's missing it's core dna that separates it from all the other same type of games out there.

    And I don't believe for a second that the skimpy string bikinis won't be released down the line as DLC, probably for a premium price.
     
  17. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    I also wouldn't be surprised if they add skimpy outfits, or even the return of jiggle physics, in a future DLC or update.

    I think your point about Mortal Kombat is pretty true. And what's kind of weird about American culture is that we are more accepting of violence like in MK than we are of sexual content like DoA. Mortal Kombat X was the best selling entry in the entire series and had the most realistic looking graphics and some of the more brutal and visceral fatalities. DoA games got sexier as they went along and their sales steadily decline. To me, this either means that MK got better mechanically while DoA got worse, or our culture (perhaps even in Japan, where I'm not sure how the DoA games have sold) is just less interested in sexy games than it is in violent ones.

    That said, they kind of did make a Mortal Kombat game that didn't have over-the-top brutal fatalities: Injustice. Same developer, same engine, similar combat systems, but no fatalities because of the DC superhero branding. And for what it's worth, Injustice still has a more robust competitive scene than DoA seems to enjoy, despite it being a sort of fatality-less Mortal Kombat.

    I mean, we're also dancing around the idea that DoA games are basically fine mechanically but nothing special and the sex stuff was either the main appeal for some people or the main detractor for others. Considering having a lot of sex in the last few games didn't really help sales, I'm not surprised they tried to go the other way with 6. Albeit, honestly, not very much "the other way."
     
  18. Bryan^H

    Bryan^H Producer

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    The DLC seems pretty slow going compared to DOA 5.

    I have been playing this a lot recently, and I'm saddened that the online lobby is so inferior to a game like DOA 4. 5 sucked, and so does this one. inferior concept for a current game is unacceptable. We shouldn't be going backward.
     
  19. Bryan^H

    Bryan^H Producer

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    Awesome news. I'm a huge KOF fan so this is great.
     

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