Daisy chaining subs good idea?

Discussion in 'Speakers & Subwoofers' started by Bart_R, Aug 22, 2006.

  1. Bart_R

    Bart_R Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2002
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hey Everyone,

    I recently got (well, won) a new sub, so I now have two, leaving me to contemplate the pro's and cons of linking these two babies together. My initial sub is the Sony SA-WM 40, which has a line out. I'm thinking about linking my new Dali Concept Sub to this one.

    So what do you think: will I get anything out of this, or am I better off opting for one of the subs and getting rid of the other?

    Thanks,
    Bart.
     
  2. BrianTwig

    BrianTwig Second Unit

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Why not just use a Y-spliter and run a cable direct to each?
     
  3. Arthur S

    Arthur S Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 1999
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Bart

    I have 2 subs and have found that I like the "wall of bass" sound that I get from having them ~10 feet apart on the front wall. Y-splitter is exactly right.
     
  4. Bart_R

    Bart_R Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2002
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks for the quick reply, guys!

    So, a y-splitter is the way to go then? Is this better than interconnecting the subs through one reciever output?

    And in either case, will there be any kind of degradation of signal taking place?

    "Wall of bass" sounds good [​IMG]. So, what improvement do you get exactly? More bass, more pronounced bass, better spread sound over the room?

    Cheers,
    Bart.

    ---------

    Btw, and this is what the rest of my set-up looks like:

    Receiver: Marantz SR5600
    DVD: Marantz DV6600
    Fronts: Dali Concept 8
    Center: Mordaunt Short 905c (though I also got a Dali concept center now [which is somewhat lacking in bass, imo])
    Surrounds: Dali Concept 2
    Back Surrounds: Mission 771
     
  5. BrianTwig

    BrianTwig Second Unit

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Bart,

    I have the same receiver as you. Just plug the Y-spliter into the Sub Out on the back and then hook up the RCA cables to each sub and you will be good to go with no loss of signal.
     
  6. Bart_R

    Bart_R Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2002
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks, Brian.

    I'll definitely get myself a y-splitter then to hook up both subs. I can't wait [​IMG].
     
  7. Arthur S

    Arthur S Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 1999
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Bart

    2 subs co-located, like stacked or side-by-side, can give you up to 6db increase in output. Separated as mine are gives max of 3 db increase. So, more output, and to me it's like the entire front wall of the room is alive with bass. This gets to be a complex subject for those who really want to get everything perfect.

    If you really want to become an expert on the subject of multi subs, read this:

    http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

    Note that it takes a while to load as it is 30 pages long [​IMG]
     
  8. Bart_R

    Bart_R Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2002
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks for that link, Arthur. Interesting stuff (though I only took a quick look at the slides).

    And with stacked, I assume you don't literally mean stacking them directly on top of each other, right?

    Anyway, even though the (even more) extra output sounds attractive when put next to each other, I think I might go your route instead. Ah well, I'll experiment a little. I only have to make sure I get long enough cables.

    Thanks again,

    Bart.

    p.s. I'm still wondering what chaining the subs would do, though. Is this a worse solution than using the y-splitter?
     
  9. ScottCHI

    ScottCHI Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Maybe. I can't remember the explanation, but supposedly the Y-splitter is the better way to do it.

    I'm sure it'd work fine if the (lack of a) Y-splitter is the only thing stopping you from trying them together, now.
     
  10. Arthur S

    Arthur S Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 1999
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Bart

    Actually, I did mean literally stacked directly on top of each other. Of course, this is recommended only for truly sturdy boxes. Also, it is probably not very aesthetically pleasing, unless perhaps you have something like the forthcoming rosenut SB-12 Plus from SVS. I have not spoken to Erik, but with the high quality of SVS construction, I would not be surprised if it was OK to stack 2 of those [​IMG]
     
  11. Wayne A. Pflughaupt

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 1999
    Messages:
    6,123
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    6,610
    Location:
    Katy, TX
    Real Name:
    Wayne
    Generally it’s not the best idea to use two mis-matched subs – see this thread for an explanation (look for my post, #8).

    Regards,
    Wayne A. Pflughaupt
     
  12. Bart_R

    Bart_R Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2002
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks for your reply and link, Wayne,

    Hm, that's bad news. It's quite technical, but from what I understand it's the difference in performance below the 30 hz area (or in low frequencies at least) where the problem lies, correct? But what if the two subs perform in a comparable way?

    For example, my SAWM40 goes down to 20 hz according to the specs, but it comes down to around 28. The Dali has around the same performance in the lower regions (according to the specs, I haven't measured it). They both go up to 170 hz. The woofer cones are both 12" big. The main difference, as far as I can tell, is that the Dali has a power of 160 watts, and the Sony 120.

    Anyway, do you think I'm better off using just one sub anyway, or will I get some benefit from using these two concurrently?

    Regards,
    Bart.
     
  13. Bart_R

    Bart_R Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2002
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Arthur,

    That's interesting since I thought it was not a good thing to place any stuff on top of your sub. The thought of yet another sub on top of it is pretty wild, though. I suppose my subs are sturdy enough, and I probably wouldn't even mind the look of it. I do like that wall-thing as well, though [​IMG].

    Btw, do you have two similar/identical subs and/or do you find you get any kind of sound degradation at all (as described in Wayne's post on the other thread)?

    Regards,
    Bart.
     
  14. andySu

    andySu Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,669
    Likes Received:
    504
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Most of the THX cinemas use as many as x8 sub bass speakers placed below the screen, it’s not used to blow the hell out of the cinema but to extend the frequency range down a lot lower, the blending of stage speakers and subs must be seamless otherwise a very and poor noticeable effect will be noticed when the LFE.1 comes on.

    Now I have tested quite a few films on DVD that have high output within the LFE.1, regardless of frequency response it’s the sudden output that will damage most sub bass speakers, I have heard some rather poor sounding sub standard cinemas that have overdriven the sub bass and with little in no way ever matching with seamless blending quality from sub bass to stage or stage to sub bass.

    This is often the fault of the sound engineer who has rushed the process where the final results end with damage to the sub bass.

    More is less and less is more!
     
  15. Arthur S

    Arthur S Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 1999
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Bart

    My 2 subs are not identical. With all due respect to Wayne, I completely enjoy having the 2 subs running together. Really, just hook them both up and play with placement. Like I said, the "wall of bass" sounds great to me.
     
  16. Matt^Brown

    Matt^Brown Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2005
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I have to jump on board with Arthur on this one. I am sure if I had one high quality sub I would be set but I don't have the money for that. Instead a couple of years ago I bought a BIC 12" and then a year or so later I stumbled upon a JBL P250. I have tried them all kinds of ways and I like them the best with one on each side of the room. They are about 12' apart and not even pushed up into the corners. I just feel like the bass sounds more even and I like the way it looks as well. My living room is far from a HT room and I'm sure my ears are bad but that is how I like it. I suggest you try the Y splitter and at least give it a try.
     
  17. Bart_R

    Bart_R Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2002
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks a lot for all your input guys. I'm going to play around a little with a 2-sub set-up to see (or rather, hear) how that works out (after buying a y-splitter, that is. I haven't had time yet. Now I've got them daisy-chained right next to each other. Haven't had the opportunity to really give them a workout, though...).

    Maybe it'll turn out that they are not well matched and that I lose something in the lower regions. Maybe indeed, less is more. On the other hand, perhaps the wall of bass (or other outcomes/configurations) will be very good for me. Only one way to find out [​IMG]. I'll let you know how it turns out in the end...

    Cheers,
    Bart.
     
  18. Wayne A. Pflughaupt

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 1999
    Messages:
    6,123
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    6,610
    Location:
    Katy, TX
    Real Name:
    Wayne
    Bart,

    Not exactly. That will depend on the two subs used, and/or their placement (which I didn’t get into at that link). The graph just showed what happens when one sub goes lower than the other – i.e., mismatched. You’d have the same situation say, if one sub only went to 30 Hz, and the other only went to 50 Hz. Make sense?

    Placement of the two can be another issue, especially placement that compromises the performance of one of the subs. I had a classic example at the place we used to live:


    [​IMG]


    The tall black things are the subs. As you can see, the right one is in a corner, and the left on a flat wall, a few feet from an opening - bad news. What you can’t see to the left of the left sub is even more “opening” – a couple other hallways. The situation I had was the right sub was good to 25 Hz, while the left one brick-walled at 40 Hz. As Arthur and Matt mentioned, the “wall of bass” was a nice effect, and I enjoyed it, but the trade-off was less output below 40 Hz. Plus when I co-located both to the corner, I got a 6 dB gain in output across the board – which I sorely needed, since the room was 6300 cu. ft. and the two 12” drivers were barely cutting it.

    Now, if you have two “good” corners to put the front subs in, identical subs will give pretty much the same performance. I.e., they both should have the same extension. So, much of the equation depends on the room. It’s probably not a good idea to separate subs if you have a situation like I did – i.e., only one good corner.

    Matt, Arthur, I noticed neither of you said you had measured your subs in-room to see how they’re performing. You guys (and Bart too) should really go over to Home Theater Shack’s BFD/REW Forum and download the FREE Room EQ Wizard. All you need is that, a Radio Shack SPL meter (which you already should have!!), a $40 outboard USB sound card, and you’re in business. Measuring your room, and your subs, has never been cheaper or easier. I have a $500 stand-alone 1/3-octave RTA that can’t hold a candle to this set-up (REW does resolution up to 1/60-octave!).

    Regards,
    Wayne A. Pflughaupt
     
  19. Arthur S

    Arthur S Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 1999
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks Wayne

    You are correct in that I have never measured my subs. It is not that I don't believe you, it's just that at this point, I have a pretty symmetrical room and that the 2 subs sound better in every way than 1. I don't need the extra output from collocation.

    I do appreciate the specifics you have provided for measurement, and would like to know even more about the $40 outboard USB Sound Card. Not sure my old Dell with its USB 1.1 would work with such a card, and it is located 45 feet from my living room.

    Thanks

    Arthur
     
  20. Steve>JF

    Steve>JF Agent

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2003
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hey Wayne...I am thinking of getting two, Velodyne DLS-4000R subs for a great price for my family room. The room is rectangular, and my placement options are limited to opposite corners (like boxers in a rink between rounds). The reason I want two is that I need to make the room "even" in the low end. I have only one 12" sub now that is not a quality unit, but is 150W. I cannot use one 15" sub, such as the DLS-5000R because it will not fit under either end table in either corner (each corner has an end table). The wife doesn't mind the look when they are under the end tables, thank goodness. We bought the end tables with this in mind. Would I benefit from two subs? I cannot put them at opposite mid-walls, as the Harman paper suggests. Thanks in advance for the help!
     

Share This Page