DAD- Wow!

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Mike Broadman, May 20, 2002.

  1. Mike Broadman

    Mike Broadman Producer

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    For the last couple of months, I've been piling up my high-res music collection, mainly SACD but also some DVD-A, and of course have been duly impressed. Recently, though, I got my first DAD. Based on the strong recommendation of someone around here (sorry, forgot who it was), I chose Julian "Cannonball" Adderley's Somethin' Else as my first DAD.

    This is an album that I already loved and was familiar with (and shame on you if you're not, too). They also had Blue Train and Cool Struttin (Coltrane, Clark, resp), but I went with this due to the rec I read here.

    Boy, was that guy right. This is a stunning disc, sonically. I am more impressed with this than any of the DVD-As I have. I was such a joy hearing this great album in a new light like this.

    My roommate found Hank Mobley's Roll Call for like $5! Can't wait to hear that. And, of course, the other DAD jazz titles will be eagerly purchased.

    Quite frankly, I'm not really hearing the advantage of DVD-A over DAD. It's the same resolution anyway, right? Is it just the compression that's different? Maybe it's me, but I can't tell.

    NP: Rober Fripp String Quintet, The Bridge Between, CD
     
  2. Philip Hamm

    Philip Hamm Lead Actor

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    It was me who recommended that incredible disc.

    DVD-V does 96/24 PCM natively, that's what you're hearing. This is the most common PCM format of DVD-A. If you've got a DVD-A of 192/24 that may sound better but the audio qualities of 96/24 PCM are the same no matter what the host format, DVD-V, DVD-A, or ProTools.

    I have "Blue Train" on the remastered vinyl that was released at about the same time as the DAD. It sounds incredible. I think that DAD is supposed to kick ass also.

    NP: Dave Matthews Band: "Everyday"
     
  3. Frank_S

    Frank_S Supporting Actor

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  4. Sheldon C

    Sheldon C Second Unit

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    Excuse my ignorance, but what does "DAD" stand for?:b
     
  5. Mike Broadman

    Mike Broadman Producer

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    Phil, thanks much for the rec.

    As for 96/24 sounding the same on DVD-A or DAD: what about the "loss-less" compression that is only on DVD-A. Does that not make a sonic difference?

    Blue Train will be on my next order from ElusiveDisc, defintitely.

    Frank, is Gene Ammons on DAD or high-res, or is that just a general music recommendation?

    Sheldon, DAD = Digital Audio Disc
     
  6. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Mike:

    No.

    Think of it this way:

    With lossless compression -- bits into compression = bits coming out of compression. Think of it as WinZip for music files.

    SACD uses lossless compression as well, it's called Direct Stream Transfer.

    Both DVD-A and SACD require compression to fit multi-channel within bandwidth and space requirements of DVD.

    If you'd like me to get into lots more detail about this I can.

    Regards,
     
  7. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Mike,

    Expounding further:

    MP3, Dolby Digital and DTS are all lossy compression, in other words: bits into compression != bits out of compression.

    All three are designed to be "perceptually invisible" which is to say that you aren't supposed to hear a difference, but there are differences.

    If you want an example of the differences......

    Start with a BitMaP (BMP) graphics file. Use WinZip to compress the file. WinZip is a lossless compression scheme.

    Use your favorite graphics editor to save the file to .JPG.

    JPG is a lossy compression scheme.

    Use WinZip to uncompress the file, and compare it to your original. Every bit will be identical.

    Use your graphics editor to resave the file to .BMP. Compare the new .BMP with the original .BMP every bit won't be identical.

    They might look the same on your screen, but the will not be bit identical.

    That's a visual example of lossless vs. lossy compression.

    Regards,
     
  8. Mike Broadman

    Mike Broadman Producer

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    John, thanks.

    You're basically confirming what I thought: the only real technical difference between DAD and DVD-A is the compression technique. What I'm basically experiencing so far, though, is that I'm not really feeling the difference from that aspect of the techonology.

    NP: Miles Davis, Big Fun, CD
     
  9. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Mike,
    In terms of the data getting fed to the DAC, DAD and DVD-Audio are going to be identical.
    The differences:
    1) DAD stores the LPCM files in VIDEO_TS, where any DVD Player can read them.
    2) DVD-Audio stores the MLP (or LPCM which is perfectly legal) files in AUDIO_TS, where only DVD-Audio players can read them.
    3) DVD-Audio requires some amount of buffering to properly implement the algorithm. Because of the buffering it is theoretically possible that the DVD-A input to the DACs would have lower jitter then a DAD input to the DACs would have. Key word here is theoretically
    Regards,
     
  10. Frank_S

    Frank_S Supporting Actor

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    Mike,
     
  11. Philip Hamm

    Philip Hamm Lead Actor

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    Mike,

    DVD-Video doesn't support the PCM audio format beyond 2-channel stereo and 96/24 resolution. DVD-A, in addition to having lossless (completely transparrent and perfect) compression also supports multiple channel configurations.

    I have four DADs, the aforementioned Cannonball Adderly disc, Alan Parson's attempt to make another "Dark Side of the Moon" "I, Robot", and two Sam Phillips discs, "Cruel Inventions" and "The Indescribable Wow". In all cases the DADs sound incredibly breathtaking. I got the Sam Phillips discs and the Adderly disc in 1998 when I got a Pioneer 414, my first DVD player with 96/24 built in DACs.

    Part of the reason I got my DVD-A10 was to play these incredible discs.

    It's a shame a lot more of these weren't made.

    NP: Jason Bieler (a collection of MP3s downloaded from his "BVB Music" site).
     
  12. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    Mike,
    I love Hank Mobley. In fact I originally told you I thought there was a SACD of him a month or two back. Unfortnuately I was mistaken but we don't know what the future holds.
    In any event, how is Roll Call?
    Post a review and make us all happy. [​IMG]
    P.S. Listened to Rudy Van Gelder versions of Dexter Gordon: GO and Miles Davis: Miles Davis Volume 1 - highly recommended.
     
  13. Mike Broadman

    Mike Broadman Producer

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    Ah, so DVD-A has room for 6 channels of 96/24, while DAD just two.

    Well, that certainly is a big difference, then, and explains why DADs are stereo only.

    Lee,

    Mobley is so the man- very underrated player. Perfect balance of melody and rhythm; very soulful.

    I'll write up something about Roll Call after I hear it.

    When he ordered it, he wasn't sure what it was. I poked around the 'net and it turns out that this isn't even available on CD. I myself have a lot of his solo stuff and have never seen that one around, so I was surprised and skeptical when you mentioned Roll Call. It looks like that, right now, DAD is the only way to get that album in a digital format. Go figure.

    The Gordon and Miles albums are great, too.
     
  14. Jeff Keene

    Jeff Keene Supporting Actor

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    Hey Mike --
    Don't forget to get the John Lee Hooker - Mr. Lucky DAD for the "HTF Blues Club" this month. It sounds wonderful. That goes for all of you!
    I know, I know. I still owe you a review of Ellington for the Jazz club. Hey, is Julian "Cannonball" Adderley a jazzartist? Could that be the recommendation for June [​IMG] ?
    NP: Tool - Aenima
     
  15. Craig F

    Craig F Second Unit

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  16. Mike Broadman

    Mike Broadman Producer

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    Yes, Craig, that's what I meant. The "and" was indeed supposed to be an "at."

    I dont' tipe tew gud.

    Jeff, Cannonball is indeed a jazz artist. Besides his own solo stuff, he played with Miles Davis during the Kind of Blue era. In fact, at the time, Cannonball was more well-known and like than Coltrane, who was in the same band. One of the funniest musical historical audio documents is on Mile's Newport live album from 1958, when the band is being introduced. Cannonball gets an enthusiastic applause, while the reaction to Coltrane was tepid, at best. He was unknown and many just didn't get what he was doing.

    Today, even the most ignorant in jazz have at least heard the name John Cotrane.

    This certainly isn't taking anything away from Cannonball. His playing was more groove-oriented soulful style. The group he co-lead with his brother, Nat, was very successful. The album Somethin' Else is probably his most famous solo album. It's in the hard-bop vein, similar to what Miles was doing at the time, and Miles himself plays. Musically, the album also benefits from a great selection of tunes and some fine playing.

    I will also get the Mr Lucky DAD, as I already own the CD.
     
  17. Alex Shk

    Alex Shk Stunt Coordinator

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    Hmmmm...

    Curious that many DVD-A discs recently out (The Doobie Brothers and Queen) have the stereo mix in PCM 96/24. While I don't have a DVD-A player for direct comparison, a buddy of mine swears that the 96/24 PCM mixes played through a DVD-V player sound just about as good as the DVD-A mixes, and he recomends purchase of those discs for that reason alone....
     
  18. Jeff Keene

    Jeff Keene Supporting Actor

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    Mike - I think I'm going to keep a running total of all the money you make me spend, and come up to Brighton with a bill in hand. [​IMG]
    Alex - A 96/24 DVD-V PCM track = a 96/24 DVD-A track. A 192/24 DVD-A track would have higher resolution, but I'm not how many of those there actually are.
     
  19. ReggieW

    ReggieW Screenwriter

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    Where can DAD's be purchased online? I am very interersted in the Coltrane disc.

    Reg
     
  20. Mike Broadman

    Mike Broadman Producer

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