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DA5ES Has a serious flaw in 5.1/7.1 inputs (1 Viewer)

Ray L

Auditioning
Joined
Oct 9, 2001
Messages
5
Hi All
I have not posted at the HTF for a long time
With all the activity here regarding the DA5ES
I thought that this would interest some here and hope that
some smart member can come up with a work around
or be able to recommend a reasonable priced passive mono attenuation device to place between the DVD-A or SACD sub out and the DA5ES sub in
Ray
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=145226
 

Michael_T

Second Unit
Joined
Oct 25, 2001
Messages
460
Personally I do not view this entire scenario as a problem. It is probably more a factor in that the signal from the 5.1 and 7.1 inputs is a DIRECT bypass, so what you are sending to the sub is the true untouched signal that is encoded on either the SACD or DVD-Audio disc.

I have the DA5ES, and have no real problem with the way it works. I have many MCH SACDs and DVD-Audio discs which have extremely active subwoofer signal - and others which do not. But overall I get very good response from my subwoofer when playing MCH SACDs or DVD-Audio discs through these direct bypass inputs.

I would probably word the problem differently than the original post you direct us to here. The problem is more likely found in the DAC processing - since I have noticed that when I set my subwoofer gain on the subwoofer for optimal SACD or DVD-Audio playback - the processing of any DIGITAL feed (i.e., DD or DTS) may tend to give me just a little more subwoofer bass activity than I might normally want - BUT it is not that great to cause a problem.

Having 5 full-range speakers all around, I never send any bass to the subwoofer that isn't already meant to go there via the LFE channel. So, I am only utilizing the sub for the .1 LFE channel - and nothing more.

I am very happy with the Sony DA5ES, and really haven't had any cause to feel that there is a bug in the reciever at all. But that is my personal opinion.

But, in the end, I feel that the direct bypass 5.1 and 7.1 inputs are probably working correctly, since whatever signal is being sent to the sub or LFE is what is encoded on the software - and the receiver isn't adding anything to this signal. That is probably why things sound a bit different between these inputs and the digitally processed signal when using the Sony internal DAC for Dolby Digital and/or DTS, etc.
 

Ray L

Auditioning
Joined
Oct 9, 2001
Messages
5
Hi
I must Cheerfully disagree
The Direct 5.1 input should have no in pact on
the amount or level of the subwoofer
please read my finding at the provided link
I have compared it to 3 other receivers
This is huge error and if you have a a correct subwoofer level with the 5.1 input I bet the LFE is 10-15db hot
when the DSP is engaged.If I may ask what other pre/pro's or receivers have you directly compared the 5.1 input
too for reference? Also The DA5ES is a great receiver
for the money and performs flawlessly in every other regard
Another point I would like to make is setting speakers to small or large when the 5.1 direst input is engaged will have no effect in bandwidth to the speakers If you want
to see why I believe the subwoofer error is so large
try this DVD A for reference BLue Man Group DVD-A
with subwoofer calibrated to proper levels on the DA5ES
Denon 4802,Onkyo TXDS 989 and Denon 5803 the sub woofer is active and robust on all except the DA5ES It is 10-15db down and the Subwoofer is hardly active at all
The same DVD player was used at my showroom for comparison
The reason we did the test is because we just installed one
and noticed the flaw
Hope this helps
Ray
Cheers Ray
 

Jon W (NoVA)

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jun 3, 2002
Messages
50
*shrugs*

Easy enough to test.

1) Play a constant test tone from a CD or DVD player.

2) Measure the voltage of the signal as it comes out of the player.

3) Connect it to the .1 multi channel input of the DA5ES.

4) Measure the unloaded voltage of the signal coming out of the sub-woofer pre-amp output.

If the voltages are the same then the DA5ES is doing nothing to the signal, and any difference just have to do with bass management.

Another test if you don't happen to have voltmeter, but have an SPL meter, is simply to plug the sub-woofer directly in to the .1 output of a DVD-Audio player and compare the sound level with the sub connected to the DVD player directly and with it going thru the Sony.
 

KC Alewine

Grip
Joined
Feb 5, 1999
Messages
20
> Another test if you don't happen to have voltmeter,
> but have an SPL meter, is simply to plug the sub-woofer
> directly in to the .1 output of a DVD-Audio player and
> compare the sound level with the sub connected to the DVD
> player directly and with it going thru the Sony.

An excellent suggestion that can be easily done! I will be looking forward to seeing (and hearing) the results of that test, since my new DA5ES is on the way!

Give it a shot, Ray!

KC
 

JackS

Supporting Actor
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
634
I own none of this equipment so if I'm in error correct me please. All Bass mgt. has to be done in the player, and that only if mgt. is offered. The only true bass offered to the masses regardless of the size of the speakers, are the multichannel 5.1 disks. Very deep bass may be available on 2,3 or 4 channel recordings, but only to those who own large full range speakers. Double processing using the receivers DACs (if this is even possible), should restore Bass mgt. functions at the cost of negating the benefits of SACD-DVD-A. It sounds to me like, maybe some DS processing is going on with some of these receivers mentioned. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but its not ideal either. The final rendering would probably be back and very close to redbook specs.
 

Ray L

Auditioning
Joined
Oct 9, 2001
Messages
5
Hi
Yes we own a DVOM
Look its this simple
Put in VE and adjust your DA5ES to reference levels
while the DSP is engaged
now switch over to Direct 5.1 input and use the
SPL: meter to determine settings no adjustments just
read them
All of the other receivers had a 1-2db variance in the
speakers when there direct analog inputs were used
The DA5ES had a 10DB variance
I don't know how much simpler I can explain this
If you are saying the DA5ES is the only one to get its
analog 5.1 inputs right for DVD-A/SACD spec and the
Onkyo,Denon and Yamaha have some sort of DSP compensation
for there 5.1 inputs then ok I'll buy that but if it were me I would rather have the extra compensation for robust
bass The Sony sounds Dry and Thin in caparison to the others Please note that the same findings were found on the 777ES by others as noted on the
777ES forum
Cheers Ray
 

Jon W (NoVA)

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jun 3, 2002
Messages
50
I'm not saying Sony got it right and everyone else got it wrong, I'm just saying you don't know until you check.

Bass management is a big enough debacle when DVD-Audio is concerned. Heck, maybe you have all the other receivers configured wrong, and they're actually playing thru the optical link and not the analog.

It's just so easy to check. I'll do it myself if I have time this evening.

*shrugs*
 

Ray L

Auditioning
Joined
Oct 9, 2001
Messages
5
"maybe you have all the other receivers configured wrong, and they're actually playing thru the optical link and not the analog" Jee I didnt know that was possible
oh yea I forgot that our 5803 and 9000 combo can do that
the only one in the industry at the present :)
The thread was for information purposes only
Please let us know what the Voltage are for your DVD-A
players analog Sub out put using a regular Volt meter :)
Ok
I am done with this thread
Good luck
 

Jon W (NoVA)

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jun 3, 2002
Messages
50
Huh? Any of the receivers with 5.1 inputs can also handle digital optical as well.

Regardless, I ran the test and the DA5ES checked out fine.

Here's what I did:

I put in a test disc in to my CD player and played a 40Hz sin wave in a continuous loop.

For reference the output signal from the CD player measured 98.5mV AC.

I ran the signal to the front left speaker input of the DA5's multi-channel input. I disconnected the front left speaker so as not to destroy the speaker, and turned up the volume knob.

At -20dB volume I measured 82mV AC out the front left speaker pre-amp output.

I then moved my test signal to the sub-input of the multi-channel in. With the sub woofer disconnected, I measured 146mV AC out the subwoofer pre-amp output.

I then adjusted the volume knob until I got the same 82mV output and ended up with -25dB.

Seeing the 5dB difference in the numbers rang a bell in my head, and I thought to check my sub-woofer output level, and sure enough it was set to +5dB.

After setting the sub-woofer level to +0dB, and the volume knob back to -20dB I measured 82mV on the sub woofer pre-amp output.

Perfection.

Please note, I have version 1.4 of the firmware for the DA5ES. This can be checked by scrolling the status display using the arrow keys under the hidden panel. I *have* seen version 1.2 on a demo unit, and have absolutely no clue what's been fixed in the various revisions.

On the AVS Forum you seemed to indicate that the Denon you were using had a factory preset +10dB on the multi-channel LFE input?

Follow up:

I did some research and found some references on the web that the LFE channel is typically mixed at -10dB to allow more dynamic range for explosions and other loud effects.

The DD or DTS decoder is expected to add back +10dB to the LFE channel to compensate.

But in the case of DVD Audio and SACD the surround processor is inside the player, not the receiver. Seems to me the player should be increasing the LFE channel by +10dB in this scenario.

In the case of the DA5ES it's treating the sub-woofer channel just like every other channel. I'm not sure why it should do any different.
 

Ray L

Auditioning
Joined
Oct 9, 2001
Messages
5
Hi
Both of our units are Ver 1.3
manufactured Feb 2002 and March 2002
So the new Ver 1.4 may be fixed.
regardless it does not change my findings
I am glad your works ours does not and many others may
not either The Denon 5803 has the ability to
raise the Subwoofer level for the direct input
from +0+15 it has nothing to do with LFE It also has
Bass management for its Direct Analog inputs
Its subwoofer LFE adjustment is seperate in the DSP

My Intent was for information purpose only not to flame
Now I know why I havent been here in a long time
well at least I got to 5 posts
L8TR
 

Jon W (NoVA)

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jun 3, 2002
Messages
50
Again, what problem?

The Sony DA5ES puts out the same level on its sub-woofer output that it does on any of the others. Why would you expect it to do any different?

-10dB on the LFE channel is something unique to Dolby Digital. Apparently DTS doesn't bother with this and some early decoders applied the same +10dB boost to DTS causing too much output. How is the DA5 supposed to know what you're going to connect to it's pre-amp inputs?

btw, Which DVD player are you using? And why do you think it's not to blaim?

I'm sorry if you think someone actually bothering to quantify and research a problem you reported is somehow flameing you. If your intent is just to make an observation, then perhaps you should make your post as an observation, and not a condemnation of the Sony.

Ray consider your own words from the AVS Forum: "I am 99% sure that there is a problem with the 5.1-7.1 input and as it is there in 2 units I must conclude that it is a design flaw ..."

I think you moved away from mere observation at that point, but I have no interest in quibbling. I'd rather figure out what you were seeing, and where the weak link is.

btw, I'd appreciate it you pasted in my complete post regarding the issue or at least a link. Simply saying "It has come to my attention that Ver 1.4 apparently the latest firmware version may not have this problem I cant confirm this as the units I have are both Ver 1.3" is only one clue in the riddle.
 

Jon W (NoVA)

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jun 3, 2002
Messages
50
Hi Angelo,
My unit shipped with 1.4, so I guess you'll need to try to contact Sony and see if they'll even tell you what's different about 1.3 and 1.4, let alone email you or offer you an upgrade. At least it would answer the question whether the DA5ES truely is user-upgradeable via the serial port as everyone but Sony has implied. ;)
Oh, btw, if you happen to own an AC voltmeter, you might try re-running some variation on my experiement to see if Ray's problem is at all related to 1.3. I seriously doubt it, but it'd lay that possibility to rest.
 

Angelo_Petralba

Second Unit
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
366
Real Name
Angelo
Jon-

I really don't need to run any kind of tests on my machine. I was playing a DVD-A (Toshiba SD5700) using direct 5.1 Input and it sounded JUST FINE with ALL the BASS I need.
I even tried the same songs using the digital input (*Optical) and it sounded the same (I could not tell the difference as far as I know).

There are Different Settings on the DVD-A Player I needed to do to get Direct 6.1 Analog and Bitstream which MADE a significant Difference in sound because the DVD-A player has a small Bass Management software for Direct 6.1 inputs.


Just my 2 cents.

I will email SOny Regarding the version update.


Thanks
Angelo
 

Jon W (NoVA)

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jun 3, 2002
Messages
50
Well, how about that.

Sony finally has the DA5ES on their web site!

Not a lot of information there, and they're still propogating a false spec of 110Wx6, but yes, now we just have to see if they will offer any upgrade or upgrade info.
 

Angelo_Petralba

Second Unit
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
366
Real Name
Angelo
JOn-
I sent them an e-mail (Web Form) today. We'll see how long it will take to get an answer from them.:D
 

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