DA5ES amp operation

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Joe Barefoot, Sep 10, 2002.

  1. Joe Barefoot

    Joe Barefoot Stunt Coordinator

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    I recently changed my DA5ES for a Lex, and sold the DA5ES to a friend. He uses the "3rd room" for his patio speakers....I never did. I noticed last night that there was no sound coming from the center speaker while the 3rd room was on and the main room was playing a PCM source with Dolby PL II. I looked on the receivers front panel and the center was not present. When I turned the 3rd room to off, the center speaker started working again and reappeared on the front panel. Is this normal for this receiver? I thought the DA5ES has 6 amps. If there are only five, then the manual is misleading and must be talking about pre-amps. Thanks.
     
  2. David_Rivshin

    David_Rivshin Second Unit

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    The DA5ES does have 6 amps: Left, Right, Center, Surround-Left, Surround-Right, and Surround-Back. This is not mentioned in the manual, but as far as I can tell when using the 3rd room option the Center and Surround-Back amps are used for the 3rd room Left and Right. There is also an option in the setup to use the Center and Surround-Back for Surround-Back-Left and Surround-Back-Right duties instead, although using the same binding posts.
    If your friend still needs the Center and/or Surround-Back working while using the patio speakers then he could always use the second room output with a separate amp. Another option would be to get a 3 channel amp for the front 3 channels, and the Surround-Back-Left/Right option, then when he used the 3rd room he'd only lose his back channel, which isn't nearly as important as the center. Of course if he doesn't have surround back speakers, then he won't lose anything at all in that case [​IMG]
    One of the nice things about the DA5ES is flexibility it offers. Unfortunately, it isn't often described terribly well in the manual...
    Hope this helps [​IMG]
    -- Dave
     
  3. Joe Barefoot

    Joe Barefoot Stunt Coordinator

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    I'm a dumb-a$$. Of course it has 6 amps. I was thinking that the patio speakers were running on one amp, not a left and right. Thanks, you cleared up my confusion.
     
  4. Mark Davenport

    Mark Davenport Stunt Coordinator

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    I was on hold with sony for 2 hours to get this answered and when you use the 3rd room option you lose your center channel. After I got that answer I brought the unit back.
    3rd room option isn't very usefull if you have sacrifice a channel in order to use it.
     
  5. David_Rivshin

    David_Rivshin Second Unit

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    Mark,
    To me the use of two of the normal amps for the 3rd room makes perfect and reasonable sense. Why should they have included 2 extra amps for the 3rd room, when very few will even use the 3rd room option, it would have increased the weight and size, as well as costs and price. I for one am glad I didn't pay for those extra two amps [​IMG] Of course there's always the option of using the 2nd room with a separate amp of your choosing, should you not wish to lose the center/surround back channels. Or even have another amp for those channels and use all 3 rooms at once with their full capabilities.
    There are very few receivers that even give you that flexibility to use 3 rooms and 3 sources. The only other receiver I know of that has an extra powered room is the great Denon 5803 (and 5800), which streets at over 4 times more than the DA5ES. For the $2000+ difference in price between them I'd gladly buy some nice amps if it be became a problem [​IMG]
    I really treated the 3rd room option as a nice bonus, incase I want to put some speakers in my bedroom or somesuch. I personally would never use them at the same time as the main room, so it didn't bother me much.
    Now, if there was a receiver with two full 5/7.1 rooms (with amps or no), and DACs enough to use both at once, I'd find that a really interesting beast for centralized audio distribution [​IMG]
    Also, I'm curious, what did you replace your DA5ES with?
    -- Dave
     
  6. Mark Davenport

    Mark Davenport Stunt Coordinator

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    I didn't replace my Da5es with anything I just Kept my V444es for another year. I can use the A+B functions to drive two pairs of main speakers with center and surrounds intact. That is why the 3rd room featuree of the Da5es was so crucial to drive an extra pair of mains.

    I have since spent the money on the Tan-9000es Amp to ease the load off my V444es, to drive my second pair of mains and the center channel. This set up sound sgreat along with two aperion subs. I also found the Da5es did not have as many Eq options as my V444es. I'm gonna wait another year or so and see what's the best reciver out there.
     
  7. David_Rivshin

    David_Rivshin Second Unit

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    Mark,
    Ah, I see the problem [​IMG] You don't actually want another amplified room, you just want an A/B option. For another amplified room you need 2 more amplifiers present. For an A/B option you just need an internal speaker selector, which would feed 2 pair speakers off 1 amplifier. You can accomplish that effect with any receiver if you get an outboard impedance matching speaker selector. I believe Niles makes a few of those which Crutchfield carries.
    Sony's new DA2ES, DA4ES, and DA5ES all have the A/B option, also. The DA2ES and DA4ES have 2 room/2 source with the main room having A/B speakers and the second being unamplified. The DA7ES has 3 room/3 source with the main room having A/B speakers and the second and third rooms being unamplified.
    So if you are still looking for a replacement, you might be happier with one of those. Of course I doubt it'd be much of a quality improvement over your current setup, but there's obviously many more decoding options in the new receivers with might make it worthwhile. Of course if you're happy with what you have now, perhaps I shouldn't be tempting you with the latest and greatest things to drain your wallet with [​IMG]
    BTW Joe, sorry for hijacking your thread. Hope your friend is enjoying his DA5ES [​IMG]
    -- Dave
     
  8. Joe Barefoot

    Joe Barefoot Stunt Coordinator

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    "BTW Joe, sorry for hijacking your thread. Hope your friend is enjoying his DA5ES"
    NP...he is tickled with the DA5ES and I am estatic with my new Lex MC1! [​IMG]
     
  9. Mark Davenport

    Mark Davenport Stunt Coordinator

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    I actually like the TAN9000es amp I got so I won't have to run the A+B option in future potentially screwing up the reciever. One of the other reasons for the return was the DA5es had less Eq options than the V444es. I use Cinema Studio C for all sources and found that to still be much better than DTS:Neo or pro logic II. I have a total of 9 speakers going which includes two subs. With the second amp and two subs I'm really happy with Cinema Studio C and just was not impressed with Neo or pro logic II.

    When all the digital warfare settles and their is a single digital standard for DVD-A and SACD I'll buy another reciever and DVD player. right now i have a pioneer 47a so I've tasted SACD and DVD-A and like them a lot but I want one digital connection to carry all my audio with full eq support and bass mang on the reciever end..
     
  10. Joe Barefoot

    Joe Barefoot Stunt Coordinator

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    Mark,
    I'm going to jump back in here as I think that we understand things differently. In your post, you compared Cinema C Studio to Neo6 and PL II. I believe the different studio modes just emulate different mixing studios. PLII and neo6 turn 2 channel formats into 5.1 and 6.1 output respectively. The cinema and PLII/Neo6 settings are not mutually exclusive. For instance, I liked cinema B. So for my Cinema B setting, I used Neo6 for my 2 channel up-conversion. In my understanding, NEO6 converted my PCM/2 channel input to a 6.1 output, then the Cinema B setting applied equalization/delays to make the 6.1 out sound like it was being played in a particular studio. This was on my DA5ES. I'd like to hear your comments as my neighbor still has my DA5ES and we are learning as we go. Thanks.
     
  11. Mark Davenport

    Mark Davenport Stunt Coordinator

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    Hi
    I found plain cinema studio by itself worked better than trying to overlay neo and DLP II. I did not hear any additional channel discreation when using neo or DLP II over cinema studio by itself. After playing for a few days I just didn't see these modes as any type of upgrade to what I'm already using. I'm currently getting near multi channel sound with cinema studio and all the channels eq'd properly. I also in general didn't like the sound when the other modes were enabled. Also the DA5es removed addtional EQ options that were available for cinema studio. you could have an Eq that effected all your channels then a second eq layed on top that effected the soundfield. To some that may be overkill but I have them tuned perfectly and the DA5es was a sound quality downgrade to what I have now.

    Like I said I'm sitting this round out and will wait for the digital formats to get standardized.
     
  12. Joe Barefoot

    Joe Barefoot Stunt Coordinator

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    Mark,
    Don't you have to choose a 2 channel decoder to get multi-channel sound....otherwise you get only 2 channels? I didn't/don't think that the Studio A/B/C did that.

    And, just to be sure we're talking apples...you are talking about 2 channel input with the PLII and Neo6, right? For DD and DTS, PLII and Neo6 don't come into play.
     
  13. flenn

    flenn Agent

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    If you select Studio A/B/C while in 2 channel, the 5ES will default to DPL decoding and apply the selected soundfield, I believe.
     
  14. Mark Davenport

    Mark Davenport Stunt Coordinator

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    I guess I'm technically getting only two channels however it's doing bascially the same thing as Neo and PL II in simulating a multi channel sound from stereo sources. I get sound out of all speakers and stereo sound out of the surround. It sounds better to me than the DA5es no matter how I configured it.
     
  15. Joe Barefoot

    Joe Barefoot Stunt Coordinator

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    Mark,

    I'll bet that when you select Cinema Studio C, that you default to PL II, as flenn said. That's why you are getting sound from all of the speakers. Does the Prologic light come on in the front panel? The Cinema C just simulates a particular mixing studio, it doesn't give you surround sound.
     
  16. Mark Davenport

    Mark Davenport Stunt Coordinator

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    Hi
    I don't have the Da5es anymore so I don't know about what it defaults to. But Cinema Studio does give you surround out of all speakers. The Cinema Studio sound fields have addtional setting for virtual speakers, rear speakers, speaker height, screen depth plus a few others. By using the rear and virtual speakers I'm getting more discrete sound then when I was using the same settings on the DA5es. Like I said the DA5es has some of the eq and surround settings ripped out of it that the V444es had. But on my V444es using cinema studio it sounded much better than the DA5es no matter how I set it up. I have a lot of experience with the sony Es units I've had 5 models of them over the last 7 years and the Da5es was the first I retunred.
     
  17. Joe Barefoot

    Joe Barefoot Stunt Coordinator

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    Mark,
    I have to respectfully disagree. I am sure you are getting good surround with the Cinema C mode, but that doesn't mean your 2 channel sources aren't decoded with prologic. The fact that you can adjust various parameters also dosen't mean that the Cinema mode is doing the decoding. I believe the decoding is done with prologic (or neo6) and then you have all of your channels. The Cinema modes then allow you to tweak the various parameters. I'll have to borrow the manual back from my friend to read about this. The reason I seem to be hammering this is because I think it may be important for you, particularly if you want to use neo6 rather than prologic. One of us has a misunderstanding of what the Cinema modes do. I hope to see someone else chime in to try and clear this up. Anyway, I hope you are enjoying your system. Happy listening!
     
  18. Mark Davenport

    Mark Davenport Stunt Coordinator

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    On My V444es I make sure and have pro logic turned off when using cinema studio c it sounds terrible with pro logic on. On the Da5es I used pro logic II and DTS neo on while using the cinema studio settings and it did not sound as good as my V444es using just cinema studio C.

    I tried for a few days straight to get the DA5es to sound as good as my V444es and simply could not no matter what I selected. I couldn't see keeping it as dts:neo and porlogic II did not improve the sound quality over my prevous unit the V444es.

    I also stayed on hold with sony for hours making sure I wasn't doing anything wrong. I had to come to the conclusion that for my setup the way I use the settings the DA5es was a pretty bad downgrade to what I already had.
     
  19. Joe Barefoot

    Joe Barefoot Stunt Coordinator

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    OK...now you've really got me curious. Let me quote you..
    "I found plain cinema studio by itself worked better than trying to overlay neo and DLP II."
    You see, I think that you "overlay" the Cinema modes on the basic decoder, either PL II or neo6, not the other way around.
    What you are saying is that Sony has it's own proprietary decoding formats with the Cinema modes, similar to Logic 7 from Lexicon.
    Because I'm anal-compulsive, we will get this worked out. Thanks a lot, now I have something else to worry about...and it's not even my own system [​IMG]
     
  20. Mark Davenport

    Mark Davenport Stunt Coordinator

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    Yes thats exactly it, Cinema Studio is Sony's version of something like Logic 7. In reality it is just a really spiffy soundfield that takes stereo signals and plays them through all speakers but it does do stereo surrounds and matrixed center. You can use Cinema studio by itself or over lay it ontop of Prologic, PLII or DTS:neo on the DA5es.

    The V444es does not have DTS:neo of PL II but Cinema Studio by itslef does a wonderfull job of presenting stereo material in psuedo multi channel using all the channels you have hooked up to it.
     

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