Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon Superbit (1 Viewer)

[Sean Patrick]

i think of all the dvd's announced for Superbit so far, CTHD will (hopefully) benefit the most. The current dvd looks okay but for those of us who are cursed to notice compression problems whenever they arise, the first dvd left some room for improvement.
I'm curious though about the Fifth Element though, it looks fantastic as it is and there weren't any extras to begin with to compete for disc space on the dvd. I'd be surprised if any differences will be apparent on anything but larger screens, while I think CTHD will look better even on smaller displays.

 

[Kwang Suh]

I take it the superbit release of Crouching Tiger will retain ugly player generated subtitles?

Let's flip this around. Do you expect English-language movies to have burnt-in Spanish subtitles?
You're watching a Chinese language movie. The original format of the movie does not contain English subtitles. Therefore, the DVD should not contain burnt-in English subtitles. If you truly want to enjoy the movie the way it was meant to be, learn Mandarin.

 

[Dan Brecher]

quote: Do you expect English-language movies to have burnt-in Spanish subtitles?[/quote]
If it were being released to a primarily spanish speaking market? Sure, why not.
If the player generated subtitles were cleaner, and didn't flow over into the lower widescreen bar upon viewing in 16x9, I'd feel less cause for concern.
Dan (UK)
[Edited last by Dan Brecher on September 06, 2001 at 04:14 PM]

 

[Rob Gillespie]

I expect it to look how it did in the cinema - or better. And this doesn't achieve either.

 

[Tom Ryan]

I'm getting to the point where I don't even need the subtitles in some scenes, :-D :-D. Maybe I'll learn Mandarin, then I can tell how bad Michelle Yeoh's accent is.
-Tom
------------------
There is nothing wrong with any of the surrounds on your Forrest Gump DVD! It's ok!!!

 

[Steven L]

Buying a DVD just because a feature isn't there seems a little silly to me. Nobody is forcing you to watch the English dub. Nobody is forcing you to watch the pan & scan side of Fifth Element.
Buying it because of improved audio and video performance is one thing. But buying it because it doesn’t have a feature that you didn’t have to watch if you didn’t want to in the first place is something entirely different.
[Edited last by Steven L on September 06, 2001 at 06:14 PM]

 

[Martin Fontaine]

The main reason it will use player-gen subs is because the subs will be available in 7 languages (I think) so it has to be. I don't mind. Although they could put 2 sub tracks for each languages, one for 4:3 displayes (In the black bar) and one for 16:9 displays (Just a little higher so it doesn't spill halfway in the black bar)

 

[Seth Paxton]

Okay, this brings us to "WHY".
Superbit - the whole point of this effort is devote every last byte of storage to ONE pristine, minimally compressed (ie, high bit rate) video/audio presentation, with that presentation being as close to the film release as possible.
So, subtitles are eating into that storage.
The film was presented with BURNED IN SUBS in the theater in this DVD region, there is obviously no such thing as player generated subs at the theater, at least not yet (thank god).
Superbit does NOT mean, collector's edition, multi-region, multi-purpose, multi-version. Those concepts are all contradictory to what Superbit is supposed to be about, what makes it special.
So it's very reasonable for someone to say "Look, just take the video and audio you showed us in the theater and put those 2 things on a DVD. Keep all else to a minimum, including menus, extras, subs, etc. By using burned-in subs you would eliminate the space wasted on storing this info (since it would be part of the picture now) and you would get subs that looked like the theatrical release.

 

[AndyVX]

Bravo Seth! I think you hit the nail on the head with your post.
Andrew
------------------
ICQ# - 119869807

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

Once again i'm all alone in the boat. I liked the english dub. There I said it, now I guess i'd better duck!
I have absolutly nothing against original languages on foreign films, in fact i'd always prefer that they be included, but I don't want to keep looking down off the screen to read the subtitles, i'll miss some of that beutiful cinematography!
------------------
"How can I heal, when I can't feel time?"
Leonard from Memento

 

[Florian Finkenzeller]

Seth,
I really do not agree with your opinion.
First off: Event though "Superbit" is not intended as "multi-region" it is intended for the US and Canada, which means it should at least include Spanish and French subtitles alongside the English ones, thus making it impossible to use burnt-in subs. You are taking a pretty self-centered attitude here: "I don't care what other people in Region 1 need, they should stick with their inferior version. I'm satisfied with English subs and that's that!"
Secondly: By dropping a subtitle track usually less than 50 MB of space can be gained (depending of course on the length of the movie). And quite honestly even if Columbia dropped all subtitles on this particular DVD I doubt that their technichians could tweak the picture quality even further with additional 350 MB. (After all as I understand it the movie has more than 7,3 GB all for itself! And at some point it becomes pointless to allocate additional disk space to the MPEG stream.)
Thirdly: Most of HTF members are always very keen on preserving the director's vision of a movie ... seemingly this only applies unless it interferes with their own needs (prettier subtitles). If you are really serious about preserving the original presentation of a movie (and I know a lot of you are _very_ serious about it

) you should at least make sure you have the option to watch the movie as it was intended! Burned-in subtitles void that option! As a collector I am always pretty miffed when a DVD I have has permanent subtitles (either burnt in or locked) even if I know that the probability that I watch that DVD without subs is pretty low.
"Who cares about people who do not speak English and the director's vision! Scr*w them all 'cos I want prettier subtitles!"
Florian
P.S.: Sorry if I come of as a bit harsh, but I must say that the way this thread is going really surprised me.
------------------
Whistler: "I Want peace on Earth and good will towards men."
Abbot: "We are the United States Government. We don't do that sort of thing!"

 

[Eugene Hsieh]

If this thing had burnt in subtitles I would not buy it. (It was first released in Asia afterall.) Too bad Michelle Yeoh's accent is poor.
Interestingly, on my old DVD player, the compression artifacts of my Region 3 version were painfully obvious. They're still noticeable on my RP91, but they MUCH less obvious with the MPEG cleaner-upper option active. I guess the filter is doing its job.
------------------
Eugene Hsieh, VisorCentral FAQ Editor
1000 km on a tank of gas??? Check out the Prius and drive the future now!
Check out my switched Dual Boot DVD Player Hack.

 

[cafink]

The most important thing a DVD should include is the ORIGINAL version of the film. It should be the original cut, in the proper aspect ratio, with the original sound mix, et cetera. Dub tracks, subtitles, extra features, alternate cuts, multiple aspect ratios and such are nice to have, but they do not matter if the film on the DVD is not presented properly in its original version. This goes for ALL DVDs, "Superbit" or otherwise.
If you use burned-in subtitles, then you CANNOT watch the film as originally intended. Most of us don't speak Chinese, and couldn't understand it if it was properly presented (original language, no subs) anyway, but it would be terrible not to even give us the option — the "Willy Wonka" DVD, for example, generated so many complaints not because a full-frame version was included, but because a widescreen version was not. What we wanted was a choice — the option to watch the film as originally intended. If burned in subs are used on a foreign-language film, we don't have that option.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

I think the real solution to the problem is for the players to not generate such butt-ugly subtitles. Shouldn't they be able to generate a nice clean looking font? Why did they design them to display blocky yellow letters with huge black outlines?
------------------
-Jeff Cooper
"Curse you inspector Dim! You are too clever for us naughty people."

 

[Martin Fontaine]

An example of annoying burned-in subs is Bedazzled, during the scene in Columbia where everyone speaks spanish, you have english subs burned-in and I find them hard to read, probably because of the Prog->Interlace and Anamorphic Downconversion. Player Gen. Subs are cleaner. And even worst in the case of Bedazzled, if you watch the movie in french, you have english subs (Burned in) AND french subs in the black bar.
To what I can understand, Subs are not just Text with timing information, they are actually Bitmaps (Or sort of, maybe more like GIFs but you get the idea) So YES they could use a better font, and me too I'd prefer subs to be white instead of yellow. But I have some DVDs with White Player Gen Subs, so IT IS POSSIBLE. So I guess we should start petitions or at least get some explanations from studios as to why subs are yellow instead of white.

 

[Dan Brecher]

I understand the argument against, but it's silly to think Columbia will do the player gen subs on this to preserve the movie as originaly intended, they've gone with these ugly player generates subtitles on a number of titles.
Again, my main complaint with them is that they're fuzzy, they look cheap and when you view the movie in 16x9, the subtitles are not placed within the film frame, which must be a pain in the arse for people with mattes and/or projection set ups.
Dan (UK)

 

[Andy Kim]

I still do not understand the argument of "ugly-looking" subtitles. The subtitles generated on my player (the Panny RV30) look alright. Are the fonts different from player to player?

 

[Eugene Hsieh]

Hmmm... Got me interested.
Panasonic RP91 interlaced: yellow subtitles, reasonable
Panasonic RP91 progressive: yellow subtitles, very slightly clearer
Apex AD-600A interlaced: yellow subtitles, reasonable
However, Thai, Korean, and Chinese subtitles are all in white.
I don't mind the yellow colour actually, but they could have picked a better font, although I personally think the current font isn't that bad. I'm just glad I can turn the subtitles off. It would annoy me to no end having burned in subtitles.
------------------
Eugene Hsieh, VisorCentral FAQ Editor
1000 km on a tank of gas??? Check out the Prius and drive the future now!
Check out my switched Dual Boot DVD Player Hack.

 

[Kwang Suh]

I understand the argument against, but it's silly to think Columbia will do the player gen subs on this to preserve the movie as originaly intended, they've gone with these ugly player generates subtitles on a number of titles.

These two issues have nothing to do with each other. Just because Columbia replaces ORIGINAL burnt-in subs with player gen subs does not mean that Columbia should never use player gen subs.

 

[Dan Brecher]

Look, Kwang, the only real reason I mentioned it was because I am was curious about what Sony's approach to multiple subtitle tracks on superbit releases will be.
Seth's thoughts above sort of sum up my opinion on the whole matter, but indeed (as I've stated about 3 times now) my main wish is that it be possible to have the player generated subtitles within the film frame on anamorphic playback.
Dan (UK)