Cross Over Questions for the SVS Guys, and anyone else who can help

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by JayM, Aug 26, 2001.

  1. JayM

    JayM Stunt Coordinator

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    Ok here is my system:
    Sony STR-DA777ES
    JVC DVD-723GD Progressive Scan DVD Player
    Pioneer LD Player
    Sony 36XBR400
    PSB Image 5t's, 2b's, and 9c
    SVS 16-46cs powered by a kenwood amp
    Here is my question. My receiver has a lot of options when it comes to bass management. Should I set my speakers to large or small? What should the crossover be at? What should the LFE Hight cut be at? I want to get the most out both my speaker and the sub. Can you guys give me some recommendations please.
    Thanks
     
  2. Brian Fellmeth

    Brian Fellmeth Supporting Actor

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    I would help if I knew more about what that particular Sony can do. Are there multiple separate crossover settings for LFE and stereo sources ? What frequencies are avaliable ? How bass capable are your PSB mains ?
     
  3. JayM

    JayM Stunt Coordinator

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    Brian,
    My PSB's have very good bass, I can't remeber the exact freq that they are rated at, I could find out if it would help you help me set up my system. Here is every customizable setting that the 777es has. Hope this helps.
    Speaker Settings
    Front Size/Center/Rear-Large/Small
    Sub Woofer-Yes/No
    Front/Center/Rear/Sub Woofer Speaker Distance-Anything in feet
    Subwoofer Phase Polarity-Normal/Reverse
    Rear Speaker Position-Behind/Side/Middle
    Rear Speaker Height-High/Low
    Front/Center/Rear Speaker Low Cut cossover-40 to 220Hz in 10Hz increments
    LFE High cut cossover-40 to 220Hz in 10Hz increments
    EQ Settings
    There are 5 programmable banks and each of the five banks has these options:
    Each Speaker (Front/Center/Rear) has Bass/Mid/Treble settings that can be set +/- 10dB in 0.5dB increments
    Each of the Bass/Mid/Treble options can have one frequency assigned to it
    Only the selected Mid frequency can be set to Wide/Normal/Narrow
    Bass Freq.’s are:
    99Hz,112,125,140,157,177,198,227,250,300,314,353,3 96,
    444,498,559,627,703,789,885,1.0Khz
    Mid Freq.’s are:
    198Hz,222,250,280,314,353,396,444,498,559,1.0Khz,1 .1,
    1.2,1.4,1.6,1.7,2.0,2.2,2.5,2.7,3.1,3.5,3.9,4.3,4. 8,
    5.3,5.9,6.5,7.2,7.9,8.6,9.4,10.0
    Treble Freq.’s are:
    1.0Khz, 1.1,1.2,1.4,1.6,1.7,2.0,2.2,2.5,2.7,3.1,3.5,
    3.9,4.3,4.8,5.3,5.9,6.5,7.2,7.9,8.6,9.4,10.0
    Surround Settings
    Surround Level-Lets you adjust the “presence” of the cinema surround effect
    Wall Type-Soft/Hard using a sliding scale -hard walls or curtains type of setting
    Reverberation-Shorter/Longer using sliding scale-changes reflected imaging
    Screen Depth-Off/Mid/Deep-Positions dialogue in front or inside the screen
    Virtual Speakers-On/Off-This is for the various sound fields
    Rear Reflection enhancer-On/Off-Enhances the rear effects
    Bass/Midrange/Treble adjustment- +/-10dB same frequency’s as EQ but adjusts all speakers at once vs individual speakers in the EQ setting
    Midrange Bandwidth-Wide/Middle/Narrow-Off all speakers at once vs the EQ settings individual speaker
    Speaker Levels
    Test Tone-Off/Auto/L/C/R/LR/RR/S-Either an auto 5-sec. sequence tone or a steady tone to only one speaker until you change it including the sub
    Front/Rear Balance-Self explanatory
    Center/Rear/Sub/LFE/DTS LFE Level-Self explanatory
    Dynamic Range-Off/Standard/Max-Changes the overall loudness for late night viewing
    Other Miscellaneous settings:
    Audio Split-allows one to show a video and listen to another audio source
    Audio Input Mode-Bypasses all digital processing
    Digital Input Decode-Lets the user specify the type of signal to the digital jacks
    Display Dimmer- Self explanatory
    Phase Polarity of Input Source-Normal/Reverse- Self explanatory
    D/A Filter Frequency Response-STD/Slow-Changes the D/A converters settings for a possible smoother high frequency sound
    Test Tone Noise Type-Standard/wide-Standard is Pink noise to match volume, wide is white noise to match speakers overall sound
    Sub Room Hookup-Allows connection of an external amp so music can be enjoyed in an other room
    Sound Field Link-Locks each input to last sound field used
    Input Naming- User nameable inputs up to 8 characters
    RS 232 port-For future firmware upgrades owner can do themselves
     
  4. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    Bass management from 40hz to 220 hz in 10hz increments? Now thats what i call good bass management. That about covers 99.99999% of all possible needs for speakers and subwoofers.
    You PSB Image 5T's have a -3dB point of 35 hz. The -10 dB point is 30hz. Nice speakers. I will soon be picking up a set myself.
     
  5. Brian Fellmeth

    Brian Fellmeth Supporting Actor

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    Now THAT is a HT receiver. Most of that stuff is overkill, but the ability to select the low cut crossover is an important setting. People disagree about this, but for starters, I would suggest :
    1) Hook sub with sub-out or LFE out jack RCA
    2) Subwoofer setting "yes"
    3) All speakers small
    4) Front/center/rear low cut crossover- 50 or 60 Hz
    5) LFE high cut crossover- 160-180 Hz.
    6) I would leave all of the Eq settings flat for now
    7) Same with those surround settings- everything off or at default till your real familiar with how it sounds.
    8) Subwoofer polarity- Listen to the same thing with switch in both positions and choose the one where the bass sounds crisper, louder, cleaner. You may not be able to hear a difference in which case it doesn't matter.
    9) Buy or borrow a radioshack SPL meter to balance the channels using the receiver's pink noise. Trim the sub a few db higher than the rest if you like bass.
    By doing the above, you will get 95% of the performance the unit is capable of. The last 5% would involve hours of tedius tweaking that probably isn't worth attempting yet.
     
  6. JayM

    JayM Stunt Coordinator

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    Thanks Guys, I will attempt to do what you guys said tomorrow. I have a SPL Meter, I set it up yesterday, but I am sure I will have to redo it when i change the cross overs and what not.
    The Sony STR-DA777Es is a great receiver, the stopped making it, or so I have been told, because it was taking sales away from their separates. I just updated my firmware so now the receiver can do virtual 6.1, I am sure I will keep this receiver until there is a major upgrade with DD and DTS.
    Thanks again guys for all your help, and keep the ideas coming!
     
  7. Geoff L

    Geoff L Screenwriter

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    This is a major gripe for many.
    -------
    Crappy or no freq control top and bottom. WOW talk about haveing some control.
    -------
    Never been a big Sony fan, but holy moly, very impressed with this units capabilitys.
    Sounds like a super receiver! Let us now just how big a difference you hear once you get your new {suggested} settings dialed in....
    Good luck
    Geoff
     
  8. Tom Vodhanel

    Tom Vodhanel Cinematographer

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    LFE highcut?
    That is impressive.
    DO you have something that runs a LFE specifc sweep?(I think the old dvd spectacular does).
    I'd like to hear how the Sony reroutes the LFE if you set the LFE highcut to say 50hz...and had all the other speakers to LARGE.
    TV
     
  9. EastonAltree

    EastonAltree Auditioning

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    I've had quite a bit of experience with the products you are describing. The Sony ES product is my favorite receiver to sell. The sound quality from Yamaha is similar, but no adjustable crossover, and Denon should be ashamed of the crap they have been putting out the last couple of years.
    Your Settings should be as follows:
    Mains crossed over at 40hz - This will allow them to play down to their lowest efficient point with the slope cutting out any harmful frequencies safely.
    Center and rears both at 60hz - this will maintain full, rich sound from both, while preventing damage. The main speakers will handle the frequencies form 40-60hz while the sub crossover follows the mains.
    LFE high cut at no more than 40hz. Subwoofers are for just that sub-bass, theyt aren't called woofers! I haven't the foggiest Idea why the too-high frequency of 80hz was ever settled on, anyone else ever get annoyed by hearing the bottom parts of some human voices coming from their sub?
     
  10. JayM

    JayM Stunt Coordinator

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    First off, let me say thanks for the help, and thanks for making me feel even more glad that I bought this receiver. I really like it a lot, there isn't much that you can't customized with. I just have to see what everything does and try it out.
    Geoff, When get her all calibrated I will post the results and if I hear a big improvement or not.
    Tom,
    "DO you have something that runs a LFE specifc sweep?(I think the old dvd spectacular does)."
    No I don't, should I go out and pick something up to try it out? Where should I look? Also, Mr. SVS, what are you recommendations on the bass management. I am really interested in what you and Ron have to say, considering you guys designed and built this monster.
    EastonAltree,
    Thanks for the advice, I will try it out and let you know how it sounds. I have a question for you, why set the mains different from the center and rears, they all use the exact same drivers? Also, you say to put the LFE High Cut at 40hz, won't that seriously limit what get to the sub?
     
  11. JayM

    JayM Stunt Coordinator

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    Can some one eplain what exactly LFE Highcut is? Does it mean that say if I set the LFE Highcut to 40hz, everything above 40hz goes to my mains, and everything below goes to my sub?
     
  12. JayM

    JayM Stunt Coordinator

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    Anyone else care to comment?
     
  13. JayM

    JayM Stunt Coordinator

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    What should the LFE High Cut be at, right now I have it at it's lowest setting. 40hz, standard is 120 on my receiver, what should it be at??
     
  14. Ron Stimpson

    Ron Stimpson Stunt Coordinator

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    Jay,
    Some of this manufacturer terminology can get pretty hazy but it that control is what I think it is, you should set it around 80Hz, unless your mains are very large and very capable bass producers.
    80Hz is pretty much the standard. The best advice is to try that for a while and try to get a feel for the (hopefully improved) balance in your system. Don't forget to recalibrate after ALL such changes to your settings.
    Ron
     
  15. JayM

    JayM Stunt Coordinator

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    Ron,
    Thanks for your reply, what are your recommendations for the following:
    Speakers: large or small
    Front, Rear and center crossover. Right now i have them at 50hz,60hz, 60hz
    Jay
     
  16. SVS-Ron

    SVS-Ron Screenwriter

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    Jay,
    Try Small and 80Hz if that's an option. Usually this equates to the same thing. That's one hell of a baffling receiver you have there. I hope the manual covers some of this! Keep picking away at it but I confess none of us at SVS are Sony experts.
    Set all speakers to whatever you need to, to get 80Hz, or a bit lower if your mains are rated real low (keep the crossover to at least 20-30Hz higher that the notoriously optimistic frequency ratings though).
    Ron
     
  17. JayM

    JayM Stunt Coordinator

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    Oh boy, this is going to take a while I have a feeling...
    This receiver is so customizable, especailly when it come to bass management, I think that it is going to take quite some time to get this sounding like it should. It sounds great now, but as you know, you can always make it sound better.
    Ron, if you have anymore suggestions, please let me have them.
     
  18. Brian Fellmeth

    Brian Fellmeth Supporting Actor

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    Jay,
    I'm glad I don't have your sony- its too flexible ! Part of the delima is that different recievers define the setup directives in different ways. For example, with a stereo source and mains set to large, some units send nothing or next to nothing to the sub- others divide signal below the crossover between the sub and mains and others give you a choice (yes/no/both). One thing neither me nor the SVS guys understand is what your reciever does with signal above the "high cut" that is in the LFE channel. Does it throw it away or send it to the mains or send it to all 5 non sub channels ? Is this portion of the signal handled differently if the mains are large or small ? Does the manual xplain this ?
    Anyway, you I'm sure noted that my suggestion and Easton Altree's were quite different. Which is better ? It depends on what you want done with the 40-60 Hz range. We all agree that the SVS gets everything under 40 Hz. I also believe it should get everything up to 60 or so. Why ? Well, if you need a heart operation do you see a cardiac surgeon or a GP ? Let the specialist do its job. Sure the PSB's woofer can reproduce a 50Hz note. But your SVS is designed specifically for loud clean output there and the PSB's are designed for full range and 50 Hz is at the fringe of its capabilities. Further, when relieved of the burdon of deep bass, I believe both your sony amp and your PSB's will have more resources for the rest of the spectrum. As long as the sub does not play material in the 120 Hz range, there will not be the problem of sound field contamination since your ears are not capable of localizing the source of low frequencies anyway.
    I understand that it is unnerving to set your mains to "small" when they are so bass capable, but its the right thing to do, especially since your receiver allows you to crossover as low as 40 Hz. Good at bass they may be, but they are still feeble pretenders compared to the SV under 80 Hz. Remember, as the crossover frequency selection is made lower, the "large" vs "small" directives approach each other in final result. Easton's settings will IMO underutilize the SV and overtax both the amp and the non sub speakers. So to reiterate, I suggest : Small 50/50/50 or 60/60/60. High cut to 90 or 100 if the "cut" signal is redirected to mains, 180 if the "cut" signal is thrown away.
     
  19. JayM

    JayM Stunt Coordinator

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    Ok here is what my Owners manual says:
    "LFE High Cut Filter:
    Initial Setting: STD (120hz)
    This setting lets you select the cutoff frequency of the LFE channel High Cut Filter. Normally, this should set to STD. When using a passive subwoofer powered by a separate power amplifier, it may be better to change the cutoff frequency. When this is the case, use a setting other than STD"
    It doesn't say if it sends the left over freq to the mains, or if it just gets rid of it. I am thinking that it says cutoff and not rolloff that it just gets rid of it. What do you think?
    [Edited last by JayM on September 02, 2001 at 11:29 AM]
     
  20. Brian Fellmeth

    Brian Fellmeth Supporting Actor

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    OK then. For 2 channel (stereo) sources, it won't matter where the high cut is so long as its much higher than the main/center/rear crossover frequencies. This is because the signal sent to the sub will already have these frequencies removed. For 5.1 sources, it also won't matter unless you set it really low. If set to the default, 120, and the source mix is well engineered, the .1 signal won't have anything over 120 Hz to filter. If the 5.1 mix is carlessly done and the .1 (LFE) track contains frequencies >120, then you can choose to let this play out the sub and perhaps be directional, or just trash it. So, leave it at the default or 120 or higher. I would not follow the suggestion of setting it to 40 or you will miss some sound between 38 and 60 Hz.
     

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