Criterion Press Release: Red River (Dual Format) (1 Viewer)

[RobHam]

Now, that's funny!

The easiest way to think of this is to compare the changing acting styles of John Wayne and Burt Lancaster.

When you watch Lancaster in Vera Cruz (1954), what is clearly lacking in acting technique is made up for in toothy grins. and posturing for the camera. Twelve years later in The Professionals (1966), he has now learned his trade and can completely inhabit the role – what you see on screen is a rounded believable characterisation with a Director who only made two Westerns .

Watching Wayne in Hondo (1953), here is an actor who has already produced a number of rounded acting characterisations in Westerns for John Ford, and Howard Hawks. Although the direction of Hondo is occasionally sloppy and it’s not a great film, the characterisation from John Wayne of Hondo Lane is believable. Contrast that with the John Wayne of fourteen years later in The War Wagon (1967), where any acting technique is replaced with goofy grins and mugging for the camera.

It’s like Wayne’s acting abilities went into full reverse after The Searchers.

So yes, John Wayne made a few fine Westerns*, but too often his films are of a “cowboy icon” having a good ‘ole time with his buddies.
.
*Fort Apache
*Red River
*She Wore a Yellow Ribbon
*The Searchers
*Rio Bravo
*The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence
*True Grit
*The Shootist

 

[Persianimmortal]

I have to say, even a "poorly acted" John Wayne film beats the pants off most other westerns for my money.

 

[JoHud]

I have to say, even a "poorly acted" John Wayne film beats the pants off most other westerns for my money.

From my experience one of the reasons I get so much entertainment out of Wayne films, even during his years of super-stardom, is that he rarely took himself too seriously in many of his film roles often. I suspect it's something he picked up during his B-Western Republic years, but he is very often very comfortable and relaxed on screen. Slapstick was also never beneath him and it seems he even encouraged such moments (along with some of his directors) in many of his films from the 30s to the 60s. Oliver Hardy costarring role in The Fighting Kentuckian was clearly a mutual arrangement with Wayne visibly enjoying his role as quasi-straight man to his comic sidekick.

He liked to have fun on screen and in turn he was fun to watch. It turn he was capable of very serious performances when necessary. That element of Wayne certainly did nothing but benefit much of the Howard Hawks material, which flagrantly cross the line between serious drama and burlesque comedy at a whim, along with much of Ford's more lighthearted film roles.

 

[Robert Crawford]

The easiest way to think of this is to compare the changing acting styles of John Wayne and Burt Lancaster.

When you watch Lancaster in Vera Cruz (1954), what is clearly lacking in acting technique is made up for in toothy grins. and posturing for the camera. Twelve years later in The Professionals (1966), he has now learned his trade and can completely inhabit the role – what you see on screen is a rounded believable characterisation with a Director who only made two Westerns .

Watching Wayne in Hondo (1953), here is an actor who has already produced a number of rounded acting characterisations in Westerns for John Ford, and Howard Hawks. Although the direction of Hondo is occasionally sloppy and it’s not a great film, the characterisation from John Wayne of Hondo Lane is believable. Contrast that with the John Wayne of fourteen years later in The War Wagon (1967), where any acting technique is replaced with goofy grins and mugging for the camera.

It’s like Wayne’s acting abilities went into full reverse after The Searchers.

So yes, John Wayne made a few fine Westerns*, but too often his films are of a “cowboy icon” having a good ‘ole time with his buddies.
.
*Fort Apache
*Red River
*She Wore a Yellow Ribbon
*The Searchers
*Rio Bravo
*The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence
*True Grit
*The Shootist

That list represents more than a few to me as I always thought the word "few" meant 2-3 and your list has eight westerns.

Anyhow, you're welcome to your opinion even if I don't agree with it. Again, I was talking my favorite westerns which is quite different than which westerns are the better film(s) with direction, writing and acting in consideration.

As to Vera Cruz and Lancaster's performance in the film, it's his performance in that film that made me a big fan of his and any film he starred in. Matter of fact, when I was a kid with my cap guns back in the day, I tried to emulate his gun draw as it was quite different from the usual guns draws seen in westerns. And I loved his toothy grin in it as he played off of Cooper's more serious look in that film.

 

[Robert Crawford]

I have to say, even a "poorly acted" John Wayne film beats the pants off most other westerns for my money.

Same here as I try not to judge a film critically, but how it entertains me. Other people might view films with a more critical eye and that's their prerogative.

 

[Robert Crawford]

From my experience one of the reasons I get so much entertainment out of Wayne films, even during his years of super-stardom, is that he rarely took himself too seriously in many of his film roles often. I suspect it's something he picked up during his B-Western Republic years, but he is very often very comfortable and relaxed on screen. Slapstick was also never beneath him and it seems he even encouraged such moments (along with some of his directors) in many of his films from the 30s to the 60s. Oliver Hardy costarring role in The Fighting Kentuckian was clearly a mutual arrangement with Wayne visibly enjoying his role as quasi-straight man to his comic sidekick.

He liked to have fun on screen and in turn he was fun to watch. It turn he was capable of very serious performances when necessary. That element of Wayne certainly did nothing but benefit much of the Howard Hawks material, which flagrantly cross the line between serious drama and burlesque comedy at a whim, along with much of Ford's more lighthearted film roles.

My buddies and I would go to our local movie theater and see Wayne films every chance we got back in the day, just to watch Wayne act like the film icon he was then.

 

[davidHartzog]

Gary Cooper was a much superior western icon, he so clearly represented the truths and values of the western movie much more effectively than Wayne. Whether it was High Noon, Man of the West, The Hanging Tree, or even Vera Cruz, with its sharp berween contrast between a man with values as opposed to one without. Randolph Scott and Joel McCrea were also very good at this.

 

[RobHam]

Gary Cooper was a much superior western icon, he so clearly represented the truths and values of the western movie much more effectively than Wayne. Whether it was High Noon, Man of the West, The Hanging Tree, or even Vera Cruz, with its sharp berween contrast between a man with values as opposed to one without. Randolph Scott and Joel McCrea were also very good at this.

Having those two in "Ride the High Country" I think is what made it such a valid comment on aging ("I don't sleep so good no more").as well as one of the great Westerns.

For me, a much undervalued Western, also with Randolph Scott, is Boetticher's "7 Men from Now" - this has it all in less than an hour and 20 minutes. Shame the others they did together became so repetitive.

As for the debate above over the definition of the word "few" - Wayne's 50 year tally (according to IMDB) was 179 movies of which > 60 were Westerns (anyone know the exact total?). I'd reckon that 8 notables from >60 isn't stretching semantics too much to be described as "a few".

 

[FrancisP]

The easiest way to think of this is to compare the changing acting styles of John Wayne and Burt Lancaster.

When you watch Lancaster in Vera Cruz (1954), what is clearly lacking in acting technique is made up for in toothy grins. and posturing for the camera. Twelve years later in The Professionals (1966), he has now learned his trade and can completely inhabit the role – what you see on screen is a rounded believable characterisation with a Director who only made two Westerns .

Watching Wayne in Hondo (1953), here is an actor who has already produced a number of rounded acting characterisations in Westerns for John Ford, and Howard Hawks. Although the direction of Hondo is occasionally sloppy and it’s not a great film, the characterisation from John Wayne of Hondo Lane is believable. Contrast that with the John Wayne of fourteen years later in The War Wagon (1967), where any acting technique is replaced with goofy grins and mugging for the camera.

It’s like Wayne’s acting abilities went into full reverse after The Searchers.

So yes, John Wayne made a few fine Westerns*, but too often his films are of a “cowboy icon” having a good ‘ole time with his buddies.
.
*Fort Apache
*Red River
*She Wore a Yellow Ribbon
*The Searchers
*Rio Bravo
*The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence
*True Grit
*The Shootist

Are you kidding me? It is true that he never received a role as meaty as The Searchers but the fact is that he turned in a number of fine performances in a number of solid westerns such as El Dorado and Rio Grande. It is true that Wayne poked fun at his persona in the late 50's and 60s but he never went overboard. The western started to change as evidenced by Maverick's success on tv. Don't forget Lee Marvin won a AcademyAward for his role in a comic western. Wayne knew exactly how far he could go. McLintock and North to Alaska were examples of these and he gave a strong performance in each.

I do believe that Wayne is the western icon rather than Gary Cooper. He was successful because he embodied the values that made America. His characters were honest, larger than life, cared for the little guy was strong, and generally ended arguments rather than starting them.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Having those two in "Ride the High Country" I think is what made it such a valid comment on aging ("I don't sleep so good no more").as well as one of the great Westerns.

For me, a much undervalued Western, also with Randolph Scott, is Boetticher's "7 Men from Now" - this has it all in less than an hour and 20 minutes. Shame the others they did together became so repetitive.

As for the debate above over the definition of the word "few" - Wayne's 50 year tally (according to IMDB) was 179 movies of which > 60 were Westerns (anyone know the exact total?). I'd reckon that 8 notables from >60 isn't stretching semantics too much to be described as "a few".

I could continue this discussion, but I won't as this thread has been sidetracked enough by me.

 

[RobHam]

If I didn't know any better, I would think this is an attempt at trolling Wayne supporters. Anyhow, if you say so, but I don't agree with you.

The legacy of John Wayne has always been caught up in his right wing politics - these slipped out in a one of the more embarrassing monologues from The Alamo (it was actually scripted as a dialogue, but Wayne's delivery turned it into a monologue), and even worse in the Green Berets.

My aging memory may be playing tricks, but I seem to remember Patrick Wayne making comment that his dad brought the character of Ethan Edwards home with him after shooting, and that it wasn't a pleasant experience. Whatever the reason, The Searchers was his last real attempt at acting,.until True Grit allowed him to ditch the corset (perhaps the wig should have gone as well) and play a "one-eyed fat man" with some gusto.

Anyone looking to define what divides Wayne's many bad movies from the occasional good ones only need look at Rooster Cogburn as a comparison to True Grit.

 

[Robert Crawford]

The legacy of John Wayne has always been caught up in his right wing politics - these slipped out in a one of the more embarrassing monologues from The Alamo (it was actually scripted as a dialogue, but Wayne's delivery turned it into a monologue), and even worse in the Green Berets.

My aging memory may be playing tricks, but I seem to remember Patrick Wayne making comment that his dad brought the character of Ethan Edwards home with him after shooting, and that it wasn't a pleasant experience. Whatever the reason, The Searchers was his last real attempt at acting,.until True Grit allowed him to ditch the corset (perhaps the wig should have gone as well) and play a "one-eyed fat man" with some gusto.

Anyone looking to define what divides Wayne's many bad movies from the occasional good ones only need look at Rooster Cogburn as a comparison to True Grit.

Now, we're crossing the line which I knew the direction that we were heading to. Let's stop it now! Any further political comments by any member will be deleted from this thread.

 

[FrancisP]

Having those two in "Ride the High Country" I think is what made it such a valid comment on aging ("I don't sleep so good no more").as well as one of the great Westerns.

For me, a much undervalued Western, also with Randolph Scott, is Boetticher's "7 Men from Now" - this has it all in less than an hour and 20 minutes. Shame the others they did together became so repetitive.

As for the debate above over the definition of the word "few" - Wayne's 50 year tally (according to IMDB) was 179 movies of which > 60 were Westerns (anyone know the exact total?). I'd reckon that 8 notables from >60 isn't stretching semantics too much to be described as "a few".

When you look at Wayne's output in the 60's he was pretty much 50-50 between westerns and non-westerns. From IMDB.

1969
The Undefeated
True Grit
1968
The Hellfighters
The Green Berets

1967
The War Wagon

1966
El Dorado
Cast A Giant Shadow

1965
The Sons of Katie Elder
In Harm's Way

1964
Circus World

1963
McLintock
Donovan's Reef

1962
How The West Was Won
The Longest Day
Hatari
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

1961
The Comancheros

1960
North to Alaska
The Alamo

 

[RobHam]

Are you kidding me? It is true that he never received a role as meaty as The Searchers but the fact is that he turned in a number of fine performances in a number of solid westerns such as El Dorado and Rio Grande. It is true that Wayne poked fun at his persona in the late 50's and 60s but he never went overboard. The western started to change as evidenced by Maverick's success on tv. Don't forget Lee Marvin won a AcademyAward for his role in a comic western. Wayne knew exactly how far he could go. McLintock and North to Alaska were examples of these and he gave a strong performance in each.

I do believe that Wayne is the western icon rather than Gary Cooper. He was successful because he embodied the values that made America. His characters were honest, larger than life, cared for the little guy was strong, and generally ended arguments rather than starting them.

Ok, so this thread is about Red River - one of John Wayne's better better films/acting roles, and its been side-tracked. This will be my last post on this thread as I can see it's a contentious issue for some.

Comparing Rio Bravo to El Dorado and their respective value as movies hinges (for me, anyway) on a couple of moments in Rio Bravo that are absent in El Dorado. The first is the wordless opening of Rio Bravo when Wayne kicks the spittoon away from Dean Martin. Look at his face - everything you need to know is there in that couple of seconds. The other is the cinematic magic in Rio Bravo when Ricky Martin throws Wayne the rifle. El Dorado misses out on both of these and overall just lacks that magical sparkle (for the want of a better phrase) that separates a decent film from a great one.

Rio Grande, and again this is a personal view, is the least of Ford's Cavalry trilogy, and the one where he thought to introduce some singing as part of his "American tradition" theme. I love the other two films (the first is Fonda's more than Wayne's),but the third I still find ===exasperating====.

In Cat Ballou, Lee Marvin won the Academy Award for his portrayal of both roles - the riposte to the drunk with the equally drunk horse was his portrayal of a cold blooded killer. Like Wayne playing Ethan Edwards and George W McLintock in the same movie.


Post Edited by Administrator. Stop with the political comments!

Enough from me - Red River is one of John Wayne's best films and also one of the great Westerns. At least that is something we all seem to agree on.

 

[Robert Crawford]

4. No politics or religion. We do not permit the discussion of politics or religion at HTF. However, there is a narrow exception to this rule. If the subject matter of a movie or television show includes politics and/or religion, then they may be discussed insofar as they pertain to that specific movie or television show. We stress, however, that such discussions are carefully monitored and will be moderated if it appears that any participant is using this narrow exception to introduce a broader political or religious discussion than is warranted by the movie or television show under discussion. Also, anyone who has not seen a particular movie or television show is disqualified from discussing its political and/or religious content under this rule.

This is our posting guideline. Please, everyone needs to adhere to it! This thread is about Red River. No political attachments to this western!

 

[aHorseofCourse]

The easiest way to think of this is to compare the changing acting styles of John Wayne and Burt Lancaster.

When you watch Lancaster in Vera Cruz (1954), what is clearly lacking in acting technique is made up for in toothy grins. and posturing for the camera. Twelve years later in The Professionals (1966), he has now learned his trade and can completely inhabit the role – what you see on screen is a rounded believable characterisation with a Director who only made two Westerns.

You're talking about Richard Brooks? You're forgetting either "Bite the Bullet" (1975) or "The Last Hunt" (1956) - probably the latter. "The Last Hunt" is absolutely fantastic, way up in the top tier of Westerns in my opinion, although it never seems to get much notice. The fact it only exists as a Warner Archives DVD probably doesn't help.

 

[Persianimmortal]

Gary Cooper was a much superior western icon, he so clearly represented the truths and values of the western movie much more effectively than Wayne. Whether it was High Noon, Man of the West, The Hanging Tree, or even Vera Cruz, with its sharp berween contrast between a man with values as opposed to one without. Randolph Scott and Joel McCrea were also very good at this.

On Gary Cooper vs. John Wayne, I immensely enjoy both actors' works in the western genre. I really don't think there's any need to pick one over the other as a favorite, because to me they're two sides of the same coin. They both typically play intrinsically good characters who stick up for the little guy, often against great odds. They may do it in different ways, but I wouldn't say one portrays better values over the other.

Gary Cooper is the quieter, tormented/conflicted gentleman cowboy, while Wayne is the rougher, more direct personality, with swagger and a dry sense of humor. The films they made were generally tailored to their personas such that I can't see Gary Cooper being remotely plausible in Red River no matter how hard he tried, while at the same time, I couldn't imagine John Wayne pulling off the character of Col. Trane in Vera Cruz on the best acting day of his life. Or try to picture Gary Cooper applying his brand of character in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance - it just wouldn't work. Two very different actors, but both get the job done and do so in a unique and highly entertaining manner.

 

[kingofthejungle]

The easiest way to think of this is to compare the changing acting styles of John Wayne and Burt Lancaster.

When you watch Lancaster in Vera Cruz (1954), what is clearly lacking in acting technique is made up for in toothy grins. and posturing for the camera. Twelve years later in The Professionals (1966), he has now learned his trade and can completely inhabit the role – what you see on screen is a rounded believable characterisation with a Director who only made two Westerns .

Watching Wayne in Hondo (1953), here is an actor who has already produced a number of rounded acting characterisations in Westerns for John Ford, and Howard Hawks. Although the direction of Hondo is occasionally sloppy and it’s not a great film, the characterisation from John Wayne of Hondo Lane is believable. Contrast that with the John Wayne of fourteen years later in The War Wagon (1967), where any acting technique is replaced with goofy grins and mugging for the camera.

It’s like Wayne’s acting abilities went into full reverse after The Searchers.

I'm going to suggest that you oversimplify the dynamics of both Wayne and Lancaster's careers to the extent that the comparison loses any relevance.

Both men had their stronger and weaker performances, but the neat picture you paint of decline for Wayne and ascent for Lancaster is clearly not bourne out by their filmographies.

If Wayne's acting abilities "went into full reverse after The Searchers", how are we to account for the strong, and often very vulnerable performances he gives in The Wings of Eagles, Rio Bravo, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, Hatari, Donovan's Reef, The Sons of Katie Elder, El Dorado, True Grit, Rio Lobo, Big Jake, The Cowboys, Cahill, and The Shootist?

It's true that within the same time he had some goofy, not particularly focused performances like those in Rooster Cogburn, The War Wagon or North To Alaska - but the good to great performances in Wayne's later career far outweigh the perfunctory ones.

On the other hand, while Lancaster is all toothy grins and posturing in Vera Cruz, he's much more effective in his previous picture Apache (or From Here To Eternity the previous year). He's very good in The Professionals, but forgettable in the previous year's The Hallelujah Trail. He's masterful in Ulzana's Raid (the closest he ever came to challenging Wayne's Ethan Edwards), but utterly worthless in the next year's Executive Action.

I like both actors alot, but it's hard to deny that Wayne's career demonstrates more impressive high points and more consistent output (over the course of it's entireity) than does Lancaster's.

 

[Garysb]

Perhaps the John Wayne discussion could be carried over to the John Wayne Epic DVD collection and this thread could get back to Red River.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/329994-whv-press-release-john-wayne-the-epic-collection/

 

[lark144]

Well, to get back to RED RIVER, and also to kind of continue the John Wayne discussion,
apparently John Ford, after seeing RED RIVER, said: "I didn't know he could act," and immediately cast Wayne as a cavalry officer nearing retirement age in SHE WORE A YELLOW RIBBON. I guess you could take Ford's statement as a kind of expression both of the quality of Wayne's performance in Hawk's film, as well as the power of the film itself.
Beyond that, all I have to say is "Take 'em to Missouri, Matt."