Convince me that separates are better (1 Viewer)

[Keith Ro]

You are confusing me. First you say that you agree with the DBT test where the cheapo Pioneer would have the same sound as $10,000 (presumably) McIntosh seperates. Fine. But then you say the Yamaha receivers sound "'sterile, 'bright' and 'harsh.'" So obviously you can distinguish among different sounding amps/receivers. If the the Yamaha can sound bad to your ears, cannot the McIntosh set-up exhibit "non-harsh", "smooth" or other good qualities over a Pioneer?

Sorry I wasn't being very clear at all. What I meant to convey is that I very much understand how people think they hear 'night and day' differences that aren't in fact there. I hear them to. I'm told over and over again Yamaha's are bright. I look at the cheap receiver and then the beautiful and stylish pre-amp and monoblocks combo. They can't both possibly sound the same! Yet I believe that most reasonably conducted blind tests show this to be the case. This is more powerful evidence to me than my own perceptions.

That may seem strange, but I don't think it does to anyone who's ever taken part in a blind test -- our senses really aren't as refined as we think they are and it can be quite eye opening. For instance, I homebrew and have a very sophisticated pallet when it comes to beer. I can taste something and tell you a lot about the yeast, water, hops and malt that went into it. Yet, when I got together with a group of other homebrewing friends and did a blind taste test of five very common beers, it was amazing how much difficulty we all had trying to figure out which beer was which. I've heard that even international wine experts often can't tell the difference between a merlot and a cab in a blind situation. We vastly underestimate how much our sense of how something sounds or tastes is influenced by other factors. Blind testing strips this illusion away.

 

[Terrell]

Another potential thread for the DBT debacle.

It's already become that.

 

[chung]

One of the best known ABT trials:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Pa...ust.net&rnum=1
I posted this on a different thread, so some of you have read this already. More dramatic than a $3K receiver vs $10K separates!

 

[KonradN]

chung,

great reference and that test addresses the concerns I had about the dbt posted on the abx site.

just a quick question. What's the retail on the pass amp and the yamaha integrated amp?

 

[chung]

What's the retail on the pass amp and the yamaha integrated amp?

The Pass Aleph 1.2 are class A monoblocks that sold for $14K for the pair. The Yamaha cost about $500-$600.

 

[DavidVTHokie]

Dan - to reel the guys in a bit...
The other part of the equation we should talk about is budget. What do you think you would likely spend on a receiver or seperates? Sometimes I wish they'd seperate the forum between those with human-HT-budgets and superhuman-HT-budgets
For me - no matter what I end up with, I expect to stay somewhere between $700-$1200 for the source, wether it be a receiver or seperates of some sort. To be honest, I'm not sure what is available to me (if anything) at my price point in seperates. Is there anything?
I have the same speaker setup as you (well, except I used the lesser SF-1's towers as rears since I didn't have the wall space for those trapazoidial surrounds). I love 'em. Shoot me an email when you're ready to part with that Klipsch sub. I'd take a second one.

 

[Aslam Imran]

Just as I predicted early on: a DBT debacle coming right on.

 

[chung]

I expect to stay somewhere between $700-$1200 for the source, wether it be a receiver or seperates of some sort. To be honest, I'm not sure what is available to me (if anything) at my price point in seperates. Is there anything?

At that price point, I recommend the HK-AVR520 plus an external two or three channel amp. And you can also pick up some great used stereo amp, too, and still stay in your budget. Use the rest of the HK's amps for the 4 or 5 surrounds in a 6.1 system.

 

[chung]

Just as I predicted early on: a DBT debacle coming right on.

Excuse me, why do you call it a "debacle"?

 

[Aslam Imran]

Excuse me, why do you call it a "debacle"?

Because everytime this comes up it leads to vehement discussions without consensus.

 

[chung]

quote:

Excuse me, why do you call it a "debacle"?

Because everytime this comes up it leads to vehement discussions without consensus.

Hmmm, it seems just like any normal discussion around here. Some people are more passionate than others on the subject, but overall, there is civility. Certainly there are more "vehement" discussions in other threads that I have seen in this forum.

A debacle is like a fiasco or a crushing defeat, and I don't see that at all.

 

[Aslam Imran]

A debacle is like a fiasco or a crushing defeat, and I don't see that at all.

Well the choice of words is probably not the best but you know what I mean.

Keep the discussion rolling guys.

 

[Philip Hamm]

Convince me that separates are better

Guess you're not convinced huh?
I recently went from a receiver to separates and I'll tell you the seperates sure LOOK cooler!

 

[randy bessinger]

Chung:

Why do you recommend the H/K AVR 520 rather than the Sony STR-DA5ES? Is it price or do you think the 520 with the assignable amps to be a better choice.

 

[chung]

Why do you recommend the H/K AVR 520 rather than the Sony STR-DA5ES? Is it price or do you think the 520 with the assignable amps to be a better choice.

I have a fair amount of experience with both the Sony and the HK-510. The Sony provides a lot of bells and whistles, and is excellent at HT. However, I find it a little hard to use, because of its great range of possible settings. The HK is easier to set up, and sounds just as good for stereo and 5.1. If one needs the tweakability of the Sony, or if one needs the two multi-channel analog inputs, then that would be a better receiver. But it costs about $200 more, and it may be outside of the $700-$1200 budget if you need to add an external amp. I also love the HK's assignable amps, so that you can use the internal 5 amps for the center and the surrounds in a 6.1/7.1 system.

 

[randy bessinger]

Thanks Chung:

I am considering both these models as an alternative to the Outlaw 950. I have an Outlaw 750 amp so I have 5 channels covered. My wish to upgrade is mainly for the newer formats especially DP2.

Randy

 

[DavidVTHokie]

Thanks Chung- That's precisely the model I have been drooling over for a while. Hopefully I'll be able to pick it up in a week or two.

 

[Keith Ro]

Because everytime this comes up it leads to vehement discussions without consensus.

I think there's still value to having a discussion. Few issues in life resolve in consensus. That doesn't mean that the debate isn't useful. Yes people with entrenched beliefs on both sides of an issue are unlikely to change their minds. But there's a lot of people in the middle who will be swayed one way or the other.

For me, and for many others, money doesn't grow on trees, so I want to be absolutely sure that I'm getting an obvious and verifiable performance increase before I shell out. People coming to this forum for advice on what to buy should be aware that there's a substantial body of evidence out there that suggests that when it comes to things like interconnects, D/A converters and amplifiers, there is no audible difference between properly functioning components.

What does the original poster think -- has he decided to stick with a receiver or make the move to separates?

 

[Aslam Imran]

Hello, original poster where are you? your opinion please

 

[Dan Mackowski]

I am still not sure what direction I should go. The outlaw 950 sounds like an affordable entry into the separates world. I think I am going to gather more information, and wait for the 950 reviews to roll in.