Complete Cowboy Bebop Movie DVD Specs (1 Viewer)

[Jeff Kleist]

Dave, human emotion is human emotion. You can very easily assimilate the nuances of any language just by listening to it for awhile.

No, this is not a pro-OSL forum, despite my attempts to have that policy enacted.

As for the extras on Spirited Away, they illustrate very well the problems with dubbing. Script changes (sometimes total rewrites like most of Streamline's output or ADV's Orphen) are a fact of life for dubbing, and those two doofuses they had writing that dubbing script had no concept of Japanese culture whatsoever, nor did they seem to care to do it properly. How could they not know what a seal is? And these are writers? Seals are used all over the world!

 

[JamesHl]

I happened to think the revised music selection for the english release was terrible, so I'm pleased at the inclusion of the Japanese.

 

[DaveGTP]

And while OSL is very important to maintain in a foreign film, that doesn't necessarily mean it's high quality. It's not like OSL is infallable.

Agreed, and this is my philosophy. I watch the subs on animes that seem to have substandard dubs.

On the off-topic Spirited away topic, we laughed our heads off like madmen when they talked about not knowing what a seal is. It sounded like one of Leno's skits where they interview people who don't know who the 1st president of the US is, or similiar common information. Or a recent trainee here (she didn't work out) that didn't understand time zones or know where Texas was. And she was in her 30's.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

It has nothing to do with infalibility. It has to do with intent. I'm going to cite Spirited Away again, and then I'll shut up. Watch how Hayao Miyazaki carefully directs his actors, and how they are allowed to perform together, and how they use their entire body to deliver the performance. Compare this to the virtually sterile, solitary, sit on the stool and read system presented in the dubbing part of the US footage.

 

[Tony-B]

It is amazing how just one little comment can send off such a major uprising from the OSL advocates.

And Jeff, I have something I need to tell you. No one is forcing you to watch the dub. So why complain about it?! OSL will always be there, but the dub is just an alternate option that no one, including you, is forced to watch. Just let the people who want it have it.

 

[Rob Lutter]

I just think it's funny how people think it is not okay to lose 40% of the picture and yet support losing 100% of the sound. That's all

Also, if you are under the assumption that the dub is the same as the sub in context, it is not. The script is totally rewritten to match the Japanese OSL's lip movements... thus changing the original intent of the director/writer and, although it might not change the basic story... it can change the entire tone of a piece.

Just like some members try to lecture others to watch their movies the correct way (in widescreen).... we are trying to get people to listen to anime/live-action films in OSL (which is not supported by HTF).

And Tony, although it might not be a threat now... in the future (just like widescreen), maybe anime companies will say "Fuck it... leave the OSL off... we know they all want the dub anyways"

I don't even know how this sub/dub debate started in here. I guess that was my bad

 

[Brendan Brown]

Two things.

One. There ARE no OSL lip movements. (In fact, I agree with Miyazaki in saying there is no real OSL for anime)

Two. Most intelligent dub aficionados dislike radical scripts changes as much as the rest of us.

p.s. The minute they start leaving Japanese off the dvd, intelligent dub aficionados be the first one up in arms. Remember, most of that group of dub listeners were Japanese language track sticklers for a long time, they believe in choice.

Just my two pence.

 

[Edwin-S]

This argument always comes up in these discussions. I don't like P&S because it involves physically altering a picture to fit a frame; however, I also understand that we North Americans are going through a transitional change in TV technology, where widescreen sets are co-habiting with older sets. I would like to see P&S disappear all together, but in the immediate future P&S is not going to go away (if ever). The dual release of widescreen and P&S versions, either as a set or alone, is not the best solution; however, it is the best compromise solution that satisfies the majority of people. If a movie was originally released in widescreen and is released on DVD ONLY in P&S then I am opposed to it. If the movie is released in both formats, allowing me to choose the one I want, then I'm beginning to really not care if a P&S version is available.

I'm not against OSL. As I posted earlier, I prefer to watch foreign films in their original language. If the specs for the DVD of this movie showed that it was being made available only with an English dub then I would be opposed to it.

I believe the original language track, both subbed and unsubbed, should always be present on releases of foreign films. I, unlike you, do not have a problem with the presence of an English dub track, as long as the original language track is also included.

I will not purchase a release of a foreign film that does not contain the original language track.

I do not actually think you are a "language bigot" -frankly, there is a term that cannot be used that would have been a more accurate description-, but the manner in which you post on the OSL debate makes you look like one.

My main concern is that you made a non-objective statement regarding the quality of work performed by the English voice cast on the "COWBOY BEBOP" series. Your comment was meant to lead people to the conclusion that the voice actors work was shitty. The voice work on "COWBOY BEBOP" is some of the most competent work I have heard on an anime English dub. Your comment, regarding the competency of these voice actors, derided, demeaned, and insulted a group of working people, and nothing more. Your comments did nothing to advance your position on OSL tracks. On the contrary, they have made you appear to be intransigent and reactionary. That, I believe, is not what you were intending.

 

[Morgan Jolley]

If you want to be really technical, then all anime should be subbed with no dub, since the original script has to be altered for when they do the actual dubs (the animation is done before the voice work, so if the voices don't match well enough with the animation, they will alter it).

I'm not saying I'm pro-OSL or pro-English dubs, but I see no reason why it should matter as long as both are present, especially with Cowboy Bebop, which has a near perfect dub.

 

[Rob Lutter]

Edwin, if it matters to you... I have watched the entire series of Cowboy Bebop dubbed and then subbed again. So I offer an objective opinion.

I used to like dubs till I was converted by my anime mentor (bet you can't guess who that is ).

 

[Edwin-S]

Not quite. If you wanted to be really technical, then anime should contain only the OSL track and nothing else....not even subs. Anyone who wanted to watch it should learn Japanese. Even subbing can require changes in translation, in order to meet timing requirements. Sentences may be shortened or simplified to maintain flow. That is why I feel the OSL debate cannot be entirely equated with opposition to P&S.

Bad English dubs deserve to be derided, but as you stated in your post the COWBOY BEBOP dubs are near perfect in execution.

 

[Rob Lutter]

Jeff was insinuating that they are inferior to the original cast... and compared to the original cast they ARE bad. While the voice work is one of the "best English dubs" it is still:
A) Not the OSL.
and
B) inferior to the original cast, especially because in this case the characters were designed around the japanese cast.

The objective of the viewer should be to view the film with as few layers between him and the original as possible, and a properly done subtitle track presents the fewest compromises. Until a universal translator is invented that works just as well as the one on Trek, this is what we're stuck with them.

 

[DaveGTP]

I think the blanket statement that the english cast (dub) is 'always inferior' is a broad generalization. And you can never substantiate a 100% of the time statement like that. With how much anime is created and translated, there has to be instances that the English cast is better or equal to the Japanese cast.

 

[Doug R]

Can't a person state they prefer to watch the dub, or hell, even just state they LIKE the dub without the OSL police, aka Rob and Jeff, jumping down their throat with "OMG SO YOU THINK PAN AND SCAN IS OKAY THEN TOO??"

Give it a rest. You guys post plenty of informative and entertaining messages. Would it kill you once and awhile to allow someone to say they like something you don't without you feeling the need to interject your opinion just to put them down? It's no different than when someone posts a Star Wars thread then inevitably the third post in is some guy delivers the "EPISODE 1 SUX)R!111!!" line.

 

[Rob Lutter]

Well folks...
< Forrest Gump voice >
That's all I got to say about that
< /Forest Gump voice >

 

[Kong Chang]

Before this thread goes out of hand and gets locked for it flamey-ness, does anyone know what happened to the guy who was doing an alternate R1 cover for the movie? I want to see what the completed design looks like sometime soon. I gave him the designs. I hope he'll post it soon.

 

[Brian Teal]

Subtitles change the image on the screen. I can't believe they would have the audacity to put these words all over the screen, actually COVERING UP a portion of the image! Oh my, how could anyone support such an awful thing?!!

In all seriousness, you are kidding yourself if you don't see both subs and dubs as having shortcomings. With subs, I cannot focus on the actual animation because I am reading the words. With dubs, well, you have all discussed that in this thread already.

The solution? None that I know of. Learn Japanese, maybe? Only then will you experience the true director's intent. The point of my post was to try and show people that this is not quite as clear cut as the OAR issue.

 

[Edwin-S]

Your claim doesn't hold water. If the Japanese cast pre-recorded their lines and the dialogue was then broken down into beats, which the animators then worked off of.....this statement would be more accurate. The animation, as you are aware of, is completed first and then the Japanese cast, in most cases, dubs the finished work. Whatever influences the animators had when making COWBOY BEBOP the cast was probably the least. COWBOY BEBOP seemed to show more influences from American culture than from any particular voice cast, that is why the English dub works as well as it does with this particular property.

 

[Morgan Jolley]

I remember reading a website or something where a guy said that he was adamant about always watching subs for anime, but when he learned Japanese, he watched the original dubs for a lot of anime shows and realized the original voices weren't that much better.

So I guess you should take each show as an individual example, not as a representative sample. If Cowboy Bebop has a great dub on both sides (English and Japanese) then that doesn't mean all anime has a good dub on both sides.

Personally, I prefer the english dub on Cowboy Bebop because the idea of the show being in english fits in better with the style. For other stuff that I have, I prefer the OSL because it fits in better or the english dub is horrible.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

OK, I feel I have to say something here:

1- Akira was animated to your specifications Edwin,

2- Morgan, as I have said many times in the past, it's not about what is BETTER, it's about what is CORRECT. I would watch Vampire Hunter D: BLoodlust in Japanese if it were an issue of "better"