Class G amps: Outlaw M-200 and Sherbourn the same?

Discussion in 'AV Receivers' started by Kevin C Brown, Dec 15, 2003.

  1. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    Looking at multichannel amps.

    Came across this review that says that the Sherbourn 7/2100 is an AB/G design:

    http://www.audioholics.com/productre...0072100p3.html

     
  2. Chu Gai

    Chu Gai Lead Actor

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    And maybe both made by EastTech? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. 'Course Sherbourn will tell you it's a mallard.
     
  3. Rich Wenzel

    Rich Wenzel Supporting Actor

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    well, it has been confirmed that outlaw outsources to eastech (it has not actually been determined how much of a design role that eastech played in the creation of the 1050 and the 950)...and that sherbourn (along with others) get their 950 clone, obviously, from Eastech...

    Rich
     
  4. Eric A

    Eric A Second Unit

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    Kevin,
    You are on to something here.[​IMG] Believe it or not, Ricky and I were just discussing this same topic this morning. Ask John T what he thinks about the Sherbourn as he just sold his 7/2100 after only owning it for around 2 weeks.
     
  5. jeff.adams

    jeff.adams Agent

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    OK, i'll ask:

    John T, why did you sell your 7/2100 so quickly?

    Thanks,
    Jeff
     
  6. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    I thought there might be a connection. [​IMG]

    There might be differences in the implementation, but I just can't get away from the fact that down deep, might be the same or a very similar design.
     
  7. Chu Gai

    Chu Gai Lead Actor

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    Well a Taurus and Sable are pretty close and I'd bet these are even closer!
     
  8. John-Tompkins

    John-Tompkins Second Unit

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    This exact thought crossed my mind when I purchased the sherbourn. I talked to the outlaw folks about their monoblocks, which by implementation seem to very similar to the sherbourn or visa versa. Ive read some comparision reviews between the sherbourn and outlaw (some here on this site) and people seem to think that the sherbourn outperforms the outlaw (not really sure if that means much).

    In the past I had a sherborun 5/1500 that I had compared to a parasound 2205 (using NHT 2.9's) and back then the parasound's synergy with the nhts won out over the sherbourn. I have since gotten the nht evolutions and have been using a parasound 2003 up front. I have a couple of friends who have a/b-ed the parasound against the sherbourn using nhts that preferred the sherbourn so I decided I would try the sherbourn 7/2100. Well, nothing has changed to my ears as I still prefer the parasound.

    This is very non-scientific and I have no reason why but with the sherbourn the vocals and cymbals just seem to pronounced and its like thier much more forward in the soundstage then everything else. The instruments etc. seem to distant in comparision.I also liked cranking the parasound to a louder volume then I did with the sherbourn(again I have no explanation why this is).If your looking for ht it seems like the vocals being upfront may be exactly what some want. Again, others who have directly compared preferred the sherbourn over the parasound.. Im just stating what I hear, ymmv.

    I have a lexicon NT512 ( Bryston 9bst ) arriving today so in the end possible my ultimate setup would be lexicon/bryston all around..Im gonna compare the lexicon directly a/b fashion to the parasound.
     
  9. Chu Gai

    Chu Gai Lead Actor

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    I just might be looking for answers that made me feel good if I paid more for something than I needed to. The thing is though, a lot more of this goes on than people realize. CD players get their guts yanked and put in other cases that look a bit nicer. Cable mongers get Belden to make a run of a particular stock cable but specify a different color and have the markings left off. What once cost 20 cents a foot is now sold for $10 a foot. For a fun read on what sometimes passes for 'high-end' consider the following link for a fun, albeit long, read.
     
  10. Charles Gurganus

    Charles Gurganus Supporting Actor

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    I guess cramming those 7 channels into one box would be a reason to go the A/B to G bias. I am pretty sure the 5/1500A does not do this.

    Is it possible the Sherbourn's new amps are Outlaw clones while the older ones are not? Outlaw's 5 channel amps were a different design (one torrid) while the older Sherbourn's have always been 5 individual torrids.

    Maybe someone can contact Fone (from Sherbourn) and just flat out ask him, "Are your current amps basically outlaw clones?"
     
  11. Chu Gai

    Chu Gai Lead Actor

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    Make sure you've got a bible and a hanging judge when you do that.
     
  12. jeff.adams

    jeff.adams Agent

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    Charles, the connection we're suggesting is not between the Sherbourn and the U.S. built Outlaw multi-channel amps. It's between the Outlaw M200 (made in Taiwan) monoblock amp and the monoblock "slices" in the Sherbourn multichannel amps. Yes, they're obviously configured differently, but, the specs are fairly close to identical from what we can tell.

    I could care less about all of this _except_ that I've seen test data for (and Kevin B. will have to chime in because I can't remember exactly) the M200 where it was down 2 dB at 20 Hz. In a modern amplifier design/implementation, I can't think of why that might possibly be. At the Sherbourn site, under reviews, if you look at the one from Sound and Vision, we see what I think is the measured performance of the Sherbourn preamp and amp. In this case, there's only a 1.4 dB variation (and no graph to confirm _where_ the variations are). What I'm saying is that I'm concerned that a -2dB dip at 20 Hz will be clearly audible. Generally speaking I don't believe in "amplifier sound" - I believe that properly designed amplifiers that measure flat and are being operated within their intended limits (i.e., not being driven to distort badly) all basically sound the same. One of the tricks is to find test data and measurements though... Hence my interest in the connection between these two products since I have not seen the 7/2100 amp bench tested by itself (again I think the S&V review tested the two units connected together).
    -Jeff
     
  13. jeff.adams

    jeff.adams Agent

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    P.S. I didn't finish the though about the location of manufacture. The Outlaw M200 is made in Taiwan, and the Sherbourn multi-channel amps are made in Taiwan. Not exactly air tight evidence that they're the same, just another fact to add to the list. It isn't like Outlaw and Sherbourn haven't worked together before (i.e., the 950 and the Sherbourn preamp, whatever it's called, are the same units internally as I understand it).
     
  14. Charles Gurganus

    Charles Gurganus Supporting Actor

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    Chu, I have always found Ron Fone to be forthright. If anything, maybe the Outlaw mono is a "clone"ed Sherbourn. Sherbourn was doing the mono thing way before Outlaw.

    Sherbourn did outsource the preamp from Outlaw but I am pretty sure there were some significant improvements like a higher bandwidth for the video side.
     
  15. Chu Gai

    Chu Gai Lead Actor

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    There are some things we'll never know for sure unless someone had legitimate inside information. What I see suggests strongly that there's a common source for the ATI/Sherbourn/Outlaw companies. One of those sources is EastTech, a not insubstantially sized company with buying power, an R&D lab, testing facilities, etc. Answers that people give in response to questions need to be carefully scrutinized. For example to say that person X designs the amp does not necessarily mean that they've been sitting with CAD software and specifiying parts...assembling them...measuring parameters, etc. Often design means something like "I need you to change the case, give me 100 MHz bandwidth, and these are the markings I want to appear." Often identical products are made and then marketed by different companies with staggered release dates. Moreover, specifications can be creatively changed and still not be in violation. For example, let's say EastTech has an amp and has determined the S/N to be 97 dB. Well company A can use 97 and company B can use a value of 93. IOW, intentionally underating the values. Outlaw's been pretty forthright about where their products are made. I've yet to see anything from Sherbourn or ATI that suggests they've got a bona-fide research facility. Overseas, they call tossing in monoblocks into a case modular.

    All this does not mean that the products don't merit consideration by anyone. It's just an interesting thing to look at and I'm all for consumers having increased knowledge in these areas.
     
  16. Dan Driscoll

    Dan Driscoll Supporting Actor

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    A more accurate statement might be that Outlaw, Sherbourn, ATI and Fosgate (the FAP-1) all purchase rebadged and custom configured Eastech preamplifier-processors. Eastech is the big dog in this mix, in comparison the other companies are little guys, hardly bigger than boutique houses.

    WRT the amps, I don't know if the Outlow mono-blocks and Sherbourn mono-modules are the same. The Sherbourn modules each have a 400VA torroid and 10 discrete output devices. I checked the Outlaw website, but couldn't find how big the torroid for the M-200 is or howmany output devices it has.
     
  17. jeff.adams

    jeff.adams Agent

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    Dan:

    I thought the Sherbourn channels had 8 devices, not 10. And I thought the xformer was the same in both (another clue). Do you have a Sherbourn? Have you opened the hood?

    Thanks,
    Jeff
     
  18. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    Yeah, the multichannel Outlaw amps are made on ATI's line in southern CA. ATI amps are made on the same production line.

    But the Outlaw M-200 monoblock and Sherbourn amps are made in Taiwan.

     
  19. John-Tompkins

    John-Tompkins Second Unit

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  20. Dan Driscoll

    Dan Driscoll Supporting Actor

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