Circle Surround or Logic7?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Chris Bone, Jun 2, 2002.

  1. Chris Bone

    Chris Bone Agent

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    I am a little confused over the differences between Circle Surround and Logic7. Are these two routes to the same destination or are they very different animals altogether?
     
  2. Camp

    Camp Cinematographer

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    Totally different post processing systems. Logic7 is vastly superior.
     
  3. Russell _T

    Russell _T Supporting Actor

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    Could you please explain what makes Logic 7 vastly superior to Circle Surround? Is you statement a subjective or objective observation?
     
  4. Dan Hine

    Dan Hine Screenwriter

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    They are two different processing systems but with all due respect to Camp I would say that it his is a subjective opinion. I myself could not really distinguish between the two and would not pay a premium "just" for Logic 7. Neither of us is right or wrong...just another one of those things in audio that you have to decide for yourself.

    For reference, the system was when Gene Lockaby and I compared his Lexicon MC12 and the Outlaw 950 using Definitive Technology speakers with the primary source component being a Toshiba 9200.
     
  5. Ricky T

    Ricky T Supporting Actor

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    Dan,

    I'm not sure what you are talking about...to my knowledge, neither the MC12 or Outlaw have Circle Surround, they have DPL2.

    Chris,

    I've had DPL2 on my Onkyo 989, and Logic7 on MC1 & DC1. For 2 channel sources like DSS, there is a huge difference. Logic7 on 7 speakers has a bigger rear soundstage and more coherent. My ears have no experience with Circle Surround, but I've read that it is comparable to Jim Fosgate's old 6axis (predecessor to DPL2).

    Of all these modes, only Logic7 is overlayed over 5.1 dd/dts and the results is awesome. At times, the rear soundstage (with four discrete speakers) is just as big as the front soundstage.
     
  6. Dan Hine

    Dan Hine Screenwriter

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    Ricky,

    Well, we both don't quite know what we're talking about. My point about the Lexicon was that it has Logic 7 and the Outlaw has Cirrus Extra surround. I momentarily crossed Cirrus with circle...my bad. :b (though does anyone else find it interesting that Circle Surround is by SRS and then there is also Cirrus Extra Surround? Try to pronounce out SRS and you'll see my point.)

    But nevertheless, and Gene thought I was crazy too when I said this, I could hear no real added benefit over Cirrus Extra Surround. Especially not enough to understand how people can be so ga ga over it. In fact, I almost prefered PL II when used on stereo sources. But to each their own. So again I say, listen and decide for yourselves.


    Regards,

    Dan Hine
     
  7. Russell _T

    Russell _T Supporting Actor

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    I too thought Cirrus Extra Surround was the same as Circle surround. Outlaw has the Cirrus. Is logic 7 the same version on all H/K and Lexicon products, or do the less expensive H/K models use a watered down version?
     
  8. Ricky T

    Ricky T Supporting Actor

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    Dan,
    I believe Chris is referring to the Circle Surround on the Theta prepros...which have nothing to do with Cirrus surround. If you listen to a scene/track with say...alot of vocals, you'll won't hear a difference between DPL1, DPL2, Logic7. But a nice action movie on DSS...I have been fooled into thinking that 7 channel 2.0Logic7 was discrete 5.1. I didn't get that from the Onkyo 7 channel DPL2.
    Russell,
    Only the HK AVR8000 has logic7 overlayed over 5.1 dd/dts for 7 speakers. The other models are really "Logic 5" for 2.0 sources and 5 speakers. You should go to Lexicon.com, and download/read the DC1/MC1 Owner manuals and the Theory/Design book. I know someone selling a mint, loaded DC1 if you want the real thing [​IMG]
     
  9. Russell _T

    Russell _T Supporting Actor

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    Ricky,
    Thank you for the information and the lead on the DC1, however I'm happy with my current pre/pro. I was just looking for a little education.
    Thanks,
     
  10. Camp

    Camp Cinematographer

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  11. PatrickTy

    PatrickTy Extra

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    Circle Surround is a simple gain-riding scheme and not a true matrix multiplier... in other words, to 'steer' sounds among channels it simply raises and lowers thier volumes. This technique was abandoned early the quadraphonic era as it cannot recreate a stable soundfield... true, CS is more advanced than the quad systems, but compared to a TRUE logic decoder (matrix multiplier) like PL-II or Logic 7, CS suffers. A matrix multiplier can actually remove crosstalk from adjacent channels to restore proper separation, while a gain-riding decoder can only lower the entire channel.

    Ty C.
     
  12. Steve K.H.

    Steve K.H. Supporting Actor

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    Marantz has the CS-5.1, starting at their 7200 line.

    I compared this against DPL2 for two channel processing.

    CS-5.1 was much wider.

    Logic 7 processing of two channel was then compared against CS-5.1.

    Logic 7 was much much more wider than DPL2 and much wider than CS-5.1 (imho).

    For two channel processing, an H/K 320 or 520 will do you fine. For 5.1 channel processing into Logic 7, you need an AVR 8000 or better yet, talk to RickyT about the Lex.
     
  13. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    I would think, that if you have the proper 7.1 speaker setup, then Logic 7 is the way to go.

    CES supports 6.1/7.1, but Logic 7 only works with 7.1 (unfortunately. I have a 6.1 system!).
     
  14. Tony Lai

    Tony Lai Stunt Coordinator

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    Logic 7 also works in a 5.1 or lesser situation.

    Unfortunately the only 'cheap' Logic 7 solution is from H/K and their lineup bar the AVR8000 is a bit stale.

    T.
     
  15. Ferran Mazzanti

    Ferran Mazzanti Stunt Coordinator

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    PatrickTy,
    maybe you're right with technicisms, but I have compared CS5.1 to DPLII in my receiver and CS5.1 is BY FAR superior, and it does really create a nice and complete soundfield. Much better than DPLII...
    And Steve K.H., CS5.1 starts at the 6200, not the 7200...
     
  16. Steve K.H.

    Steve K.H. Supporting Actor

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  17. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    Steve- I have never seen Logic 7 referenced to a 6.1 system. And I looked! [​IMG] I'm pretty sure you can't even configure a DC-2 or MC-1 for 6 speakers. ??
    It may even "work" on a 5.1 system, but the whole point is to use it on a 7.1 system.
     
  18. Steve K.H.

    Steve K.H. Supporting Actor

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    Kev,

    I've pulled this from the AVR 520 manual...

    ..the "5.1" versions of Logic 7 modes are available when the 5.1 option is chosen, while the "7.1" versions of Logic 7 produce a full sound field presentation, including back surround speakers when the "6.1/7.1" option is chosen....

    This may be somewhat ambiguous, yet I read into this that Logic 7 may be processed (properly) into 5, 6, or 7 speaker configurations. There is no reference that you would expect otherwise such as "Logic 7 may be configured for processing and distribution through 5 or 7 channel surround setups."
     
  19. Tony Lai

    Tony Lai Stunt Coordinator

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    Steve, look at this thread:
    http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...threadid=79669
    Supposedly new models are coming from H/K. I really do not know if it is true that Logic 7 doesn't work on 5.1 or better sources.
    If that is true, it is no better than Neo or DPL2 then in this case.
    T.
     
  20. GregK

    GregK Screenwriter

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    When I first auditioned the Circle Surround mode on a lower end Kenwood receiver, it was apparent that it was louder by at least a few db when compared to the other modes, be they DSP, DPL-II or straight stereo. As most know, a few db boost can greatly affect "subjective" testing. Is this also the case with Circle Surround decoding in other processors?
    In any case, after doing some listening using some well known music, CS just didn't seem to have the stability that DPL-2 has. It may be wide, but I would say it certainly lacks "focus". Ty's technical breakdown of the format would also bear this out.
    ..And if the matrix wars aren't messy enough.. get ready
    for... (drumroll please...) CIRCLE SURROUND II !![​IMG]
    http://www.srslabs.com/ConsumerTechMultichannel.asp#CS2
     

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