cinepro pre/pro? (1 Viewer)

[John Morris]

Thanks JohnK: But, once again. Aren't even THD and IMD differences at the point of inaudibility once you get to the >$2500 prepros? I mean, can you hook up an Anthem AVM-20 and then a Tag unit, watch some movies and listen to some SACDs and then say... Wow, that Tag sure sounds alot better than the Anthem? I've found that once you get to the higher dollar cost units, it is virtually impossible to identify audibly neutral preamps by sound alone unless I find something specific that I just don't like... like a rolled off top end.?

 

[John Kotches]

Merc,

I wouldn't say that measured distortions are inaudible based on price points.

Here's an example, how much Frequency Response variation from flat is audible? .1dB, .01dB? How many companies spec below the level of .1dB anyway?

As I said earlier, there's more going on(unfortunately) than existing measurements deliver at this point in time.

Regards,

 

[John Morris]

John K: Maybe I am not making myself clear, so I'll just come out and ask you directly. If you listened to an Anthem AVM-20 and then listened to the Tag92 unit, would you agree that based on just sound alone, regardless of published or measured specs, the Tag sounds twice as good, or even just noticably better sounding than the Anthem?

 

[John Kotches]

Merc,

I would say it would probably be noticably better.

We are also talking about a point where diminishing returns have kicked in, and ekeing that last little bit of performance gets very costly.

For instance, is a Theta CB-2 with Extreme DACs 6x better than an AVM-20? No. Is it noticably better? Yes.

This is where what I call the "personal value" equation comes in. Some people would feel that paying 6x for the performance increase is well worth the differential, and others don't.

Regards,

 

[Larry B]

John:

(emphasis added)

Could you please repeat this a few zillion times for all the folks who just don't seem to get it?
Thanks.
Larry

 

[John Kotches]

Larry,
No. (Repeat a few zillion - 1 times)
Regards,

 

[John Morris]

Is it noticably better? Yes.

Now, finally, that's the answer I was looking for... As long as you can audibly hear the difference, then, I might be able to appreciate and understand why someone would pay 6X the cost. Still, for as clean as a preamp like the Anthem AVM-20 sounds, I can't imagine actually being able to blindly hear a preamp which sounds cleaner? How much more invisible can another unit be?

 

[Greg_R]

John Morris,

How about room correction, additional channels (10.4), upgradability, enhanced surround (logic 7, etc.) and advanced bass management? These features are usually not found on sub $2500 pre/pros. Whether these features are worth the cost increase is a personal decision...

Greg (happy with his receiver)

 

[John Morris]

Greg: All I am talking about here is HOW the unit actually SOUNDS. That is all... but thanks for the input.

 

[Mifr44]

John,

"For instance, is a Theta CB-2 with Extreme DACs 6x better than an AVM-20? No. Is it noticably better? Yes."

I had a problem with this statement when I first read it, then I realized that it is backwards (or at least I believe it is). Did you really mean to say the following?

"For instance, is a Theta CB-2 with Extreme DACs 6x better than an AVM-20? Yes. Is it noticably better? No."

Michael

 

[John Kotches]

Micheal,

Doh!

It was perfectly clear in my brain, unfortunately the cognitive to motive interface was apparently defective at the point in time I typed the message.

A point I haven't made yet....

Your "barely discernible difference" could be my "night and day difference".

Regards,

 

[John Kotches]

Michael,

Reading back over it, and getting my thoughts in order, the sequencing is not backwards, but requires a bit of explanation... meaning my train of thought wasn't perfectly lucid.

Start with this reference:

Is it noticably better? Yes

Hopefully, with this explanation of my line of thinking it makes a bit more sense.

Regards,

 

[Mifr44]

John,

Gotcha. I think you stated your point as We are also talking about a point where diminishing returns have kicked in, and ekeing that last little bit of performance gets very costly.. In that light, your statement For instance, is a Theta CB-2 with Extreme DACs 6x better than an AVM-20? No. Is it noticably better? Yes. " does make some sense.

BTW, I owned the Lexicon MC-1 for 9 months before selling it and ending up with the Anthem AVM-20. In my system, the AVM-20 is noticably better musically than the MC-1. The Theta CB-2 must be an awesome product if it is noticably better than the AVM-20. What kind of system did you compare the Theta CB-2 to the AVM-20 in?

Michael

 

[John Morris]

Some folk aaaaaaa

Good luck to ya all...

Take Care,

merc

 

[John Morris]

Wow... this is not me...merc.

I have now changed my password....

 

[John Kotches]

Merc,

Chill dude, seriously.

I am pointing out that the last little bit of performance is very costly.

Take the Cinepro 3K6, Series III (about 122dB SNR).

The 3K6, SE Gold sells for about 60% more money to gain 2dB of SNR.

Regards,

 

[John Kotches]

Michael,

Meadowlark Audio Speakers...

Herons in front

Petrel CC

Shearwater surrounds

Amplification: Theta Dreadnaught

This was at a retailer.

Yes, level matched (as close as you can get with a Rat Shack meter).

Was it a perfect comparison? Of course not.

Regards,

 

[John Kotches]

Merc,

I've heard neither the Outlaw 950 or the Rotel 1066, so the only thing I could talk about is feature differences on a purely theoretical basis.

In other words any advice I gave about either of these would be of extremely limited value.

 

[Mifr44]

John,

That's a nice system to compare processors with. It certainly dwarfs our mid-fi setup, although I am sometimes surprised what improves and what degrades the sound in our own system.

Michael

 

[Sanjay Gupta]

Here is some sad news that might be of interest to some. Eric Abraham, president of Cinepro died recently (couple of weeks I think). Hopefully this will not effect the functioning and/or quality of this companies excellent products.

Sanjay

Member since 1997