Children of Dune March 16th on Sci-Fi (1 Viewer)

[Brian_FSullivan]

SciFi is in a very bad position right now. Their parent company (Vivendi) wants them to go one way, they want to go another, but you don't get budget increases for things that go against the grain of what the parent wants

I won't debate you about Vivendi being a mess but Sci Fi Channel itself is in its best shape ever right now. As of the week of March 2-9, Sci Fi averaged a 1.1 rating in primetime. That puts it in the top 10 of all cable networks for the week:

1. TNT - 2.2 rating
2. Fox News - 2.0
3. Nickelodeon - 1.7
4. USA - 1.6
5. Disney Channel - 1.5 (tie)
5. Cartoon Network - 1.5 (tie)
5. TBS - 1.5 (tie)
5. Lifetime - 1.5 (tie)
8. CNN - 1.1 (tie)
8. Sci Fi Channel - 1.1 (tie)
8. TLC - 1.1 (tie)

It also managed a 0.6 rating in the 18-49 demographic putting it in sixth place for the week.

All of this after Sci Fi turned in its best February sweeps performance ever, up over 41% from last season. All of this without "Children of Dune" or "Taken" playing.

 

[Rex Bachmann]

Actually, that explains nothing. My point about an "über-British dialect" is not so much a complaint about the main characters' speaking British English as it is about their speaking different dialects of British English, even though they work and live so closely together. I'm no expert on British dialect, but I think I'm detecting dialect differences in their pronunciation. Julie Cox's (Irulan) dialect doesn't strike me as quite the same as that of James McAvoy (Leto II). The off-glides (peripheral lip-rounding) on the young man's o's are so heavy as to thoroughly stand out from those of the other speakers. (Folks, if you want to test someone's English dialect, I'd always suggest having them pronounce words with stressed o's in them. If they don't sound like your o's in the same words, chances are you and they don't speak quite the same dialect.) And, of course, P.H. Moriarty's "Gurney Halleck" has his own dialect going (perhaps to suggest a lower-class origin?). The original actor who played "Duncan Idaho" had a heavy Scottish "burr", as they say. And so forth.

Just because most of the main characters speak "British English", doesn't mean they're all speaking the same dialect of British English, and one normally learns to speak like one's contemporary social group, not like someone else's.

Would it be acceptable to have an all-American cast of characters in a closed social circle of people who've spent most of their time---their lives---with each other, some speaking West Texan dialect, another a "NU YawK" or "Joysey" accent, another "Valley talk", with a touch of "hip-hop" speak and Mid-Western farmer twang on the side??? Now, this isn't anywhere nearly that bad, of course, but you get the picture. It's mildly annoying. (And recall the absolute care which Peter Jackson has taken to minimize or erase the dialect differences in his actors' speech in his Lord of the Rings trilogy set in a different kind of fantasy world.)

And, by the way, the production values, including the CGI land- and cityscapes and the "blue-eye" effect, are, indeed, greatly improved over those of the first mini-series, just as one would expect. If this were really a more "sciency" science fiction, that would be much more important than it can be here. This is, as the director has stated in interviews, mostly a political drama ("the empowerment of women"). And, on that level, I personally think the original story and its characters were much more interesting than these.

 

[nolesrule]

The mix of accents doesn't bother me at all, probably because it's just one of those things that I don't feel is relevent to the story.

As opposed to one line spoken by one of the characters in The Two Towers which has a decidely kiwi accent to it, which really breaks the moment for me every time I see the film.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

I didn't get much out of last night's episode either, but I was near exaustion at that point. Plan on rewatching the last half hour or so.

One thing I wanted to added was I liked how they handled the political undertone. Instead of going with ridiculous over dubbing ala Lynch, they used what was actually said aloud and the intended meaning in subtitles. I thought it worked beautifully.

 

[Lars_J]

One thing I wanted to added was I liked how they handled the political undertone. Instead of going with ridiculous over dubbing ala Lynch, they used what was actually said aloud and the intended meaning in subtitles. I thought it worked beautifully.

Not quite - That was Bene Gesserit hand or sign language. (notice how the camera shifts to the hands sometimes) Although I suppose it is quite possible that the combination of spoken words and hand signs combined generated the desired meaning of the conversation.

I agree with you about the "ridiculous over dubbing" of Lynch's Dune, though. Truly the most abominable feature of that film.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Well, I saw tonight's episode and I'm not sure what to make of it. The story itself isn't nearly as dynamic as the original was, but it's more complex and more subtle. It seems like the consequences on the lives of TPTB. There was some really wonderful stuff in the last two hours.

The only problem was the commercials. Too many, too often and with such a slow and subtle narrative; it's easy to lose interest.

 

[nolesrule]

The worst was the commerical right at the very end. After watching the conclusion, instead of going to credits so that I could slowly emerge from the viewing experience, I got slapped by that Riverworld commercial while still in deep thought about what I had seen.

Very jarring and pissed me off a bit.

 

[DavidAC]

Well I guess thats one good thing about having to wait to see it on DVD, no commercials to deal with.

 

[Rex Bachmann]

Some observations (in no particular order):

The heartbreak of psoriasis, Arrakis-style:

So, at the end Leto's running around the desert trying to save himself (even if by death) from becoming . . . worm boy? Earlier he has overdosed on spice and has then let worm(?) larvae infest him. ("My skin is not my own.") It seems to me that people who encounter him are much too nonchalant about his, um, "skin problem". I'd be asking: "What the heck happened to you?!?"

Leto II to Stil(gar): "Everything arrives later in its . . . changed form." What form is he to arrive in later?

Estrogena:

Wensicia (Sarandon) to Farad'N (Bruun): "You're more of a man than I ever thought possible." (I guess so since heretofore she's been telling him when to take a bath.) Farad'N is far whimpier than even I thought possible. He gets to be the "consort" of the Atreides heir, even though he's a noble prince in his own right??? Is the book version of this character anywhere near as docile as this??? A very sad character, indeed.

Keeping the "blood lines" pure:

Do I pick up an incest vibe? In addition to all the inappropriate twin cuddling, Ghanima to her would-be hubbie, Farad'N: "He [Leto II] puts his head in my lap . . . " It sounds as if he, Farad'N, will ever be second to her "real love" . . . . although they both chalk it up to . . . "politics". (Whatever that's supposed to mean here.)


Howlers (all Leto moments):

(a) Leto's stamping in the desert sand to draw the worms. I thought for a second he had a new dance move (the "Shai-Halud Dude thump"?), but the rhythm just wasn't with 'im.
(b) Leto sounding off at court like a giant worm (actually more like a belligerent (and probably horny) bull elephant). If I had been at court and had heard this, I would've died laughing on the spot.
(c) "I am deseht pOWuH!" (aforementioned)

Needless to say, I wasn't (favorably) impressed by the character or the actor portraying him.

Conclusion: I enjoyed the original mini-series production much more than this one.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

What form is he to arrive in later?

Why, the worm of course


EDIT: Unless by he you mean Stil. In which case, I'm guessing it was more metaphorical.

 

[Bryan Tuck]

Aside from a few moments of cheesiness here and there, I enjoyed the entire miniseries quite a bit. I'm not sure if it was better than it's predecessor; I think there were parts I liked better in this one, and vice versa.

I agree that the montage near the end of Part I was terrific; had kind of a new-age Godfather vibe going on.

As for the acting, I liked Alec Newman's performance; I think he was much better this time around, especially...

...after he was presumed dead and returned. I loved his scenes with Gurney.

Everyone else, despite the variations in accents was certainly more than serviceable. The only caveat I had was Susan Sarandon, who I normally like, but who here seemed to have kind of a "I'm just here to have a good time and slum it" kind of attitude. She was fine in the role, but I think she was capable of better.

Other thoughts: Even though I liked Graeme Revell's work on the first miniseries, I thought Brian Tyler's score here was much better. And the inclusion of some of Revell's themes and motifs was nice.

Overall, some really good television.

 

[nolesrule]

Rex, your criticisms seem to show that you really weren't paying that much attention to the story in either of the mini-series and were only focusing on a couple of moments.

All your criticisms (other than the accent piece) seem to come from the point of view of an outside observer, not someone who has lived on Arrakis.



This is the most ridiculous thing you wrote. If you had been there, you would have heard the sound that a worm makes. And on Arrakis, that is a sound that causes fear. You aren't separating fictional story from real life.

 

[Mark-W]

Joe-

I like all of your rebuttal comments.

I have to say I thought this series ended more with a
wimper than an bang, and several things felt left undone,
which is not how I remember the book ending.

As for general obeservations, in the books, I got the
impression that Leto II almost "glides" over the sand
because the sand trout have fused with him, and in the
mini-series, it felt like he had become one of the lesser
known X-Men: "Sandrunner."

Other than that, I enjoyed this series quite a bit,
with the ending montage the opening night being the
high point.

The score was gorgeous.

 

[Quentin]

To each his own, Rex...though I'm surprised at the silliness of your points.

This series FAR surpassed the original (poor) series and bodes quite well for the next series. I was never a big fan of Messiah and Children, but I thought this series did a great job of hitting the high points and keeping it trim.

The next series is to be Heretics/Chapterhouse and could be VERY cool.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Quentin is correct. I'm surprised they're skipping God Awful of Dune though. From what I remember of the two books, this did do a very good job of trimming out the endless prattle. I never got past the midway point of God Emperor due to it being so...God Awful

 

[Lars_J]

They would not skip "God Emperor of Dune" - I'm not sure where that info has come from. (A Misunderstanding?) I seem to recall reading that Harrison was looking into or researching an adaptaion of GEoD.

I personally thought GEoD was pretty decent. But the last two books deteriorated quite a bit IMO. But then again it could be argued that every Dune sequel that Herbert wrote was lesser than its predecessor.

 

[nolesrule]

Mark, I read Messiah, but only got a couple chapters into Children (graduating college/getting married/finding a job) and haven't touched it since, so all of my responses were based solely on what I saw in the mini-series.

Although having watched it, I want to go back and reread Dune and Dune Messiah and then finish off Children of Dune and the books after it. I actually have God Emperor of Dune teasing me on my bookshelf here. The other 3 have been in a box at my parents' house for 5 years. I need to go dig them out.

 

[Quentin]

God Awful of Dune (love that ) is too introspective and philosophical to be made into a film. Not to mention, Leto is some big half worm. How the hell would they even begin to show that?? It is a boooooring book full of long, endless passages philosophizing on God knows what, and from what I have heard, they aren't going to be stupid enough to even try and adapt it.

Heretics and Chapterhouse are the only two books that come close to the quality of the original. Some feel they equal or surpass it, but I definitely think that's going too far. Still, gone are the characters of the original and replaced with some fascinating characters, new plans within plans, and some pretty epic stuff. It really is Herbert getting back to form.

 

[Mark-W]

I remember reading God Emperor of Dune,
and it seems like they really couldn't, or shouldn't
pass on the bit of plot action that is in that book.

From what I remember:
Leto II becomes, basically a large worm, except
he still retains some of his human facial features.
His decendants all come from his twin sister, and he
watches these prodengy very careful.

Doesn't he rule for something like 400-1000 years?
And his deciples spread througought the universe.

Then, in a knowing way, he fall victim to a trap where
he is crossing a bridge, and it get sabotaged, hence he
falls in water, and being a worm/human hibrid, all his
worm parts act like a chicken with its head cut off, and
his body rips away from him in chunks, leaving a puny
little humanoid form dying in the water.

And it is one of his decendants that does this to him,
because he is thought of as something of a tyrant.



And all along there is all of this internal dialogue
which would be unbearable on film.

I know many didn't but I really like
Heretics of Dune as it had lots of action, and the two different types of women:
the "honored matres" and the "bene gesserit"
fighting in a very cool way.


I also liked Chapterhouse.
Still, they could deal with
God Emperor of Dune in about 15 minutes
at the begining, just to get us from the end of
Children of Dune to Hedretics of Dune.

I do remember thinking God Emperor of Dune
would make the shortests "Cliff's Notes" ever:
A big worm man thinks a lot to himself,
is called a tryant, and gets killed.
.



Mark

 

[Rex Bachmann]

Joe Kauffman wrote (post #72):


Quote:



Rex, your criticisms seem to show that you really weren't paying that much attention to the story in either of the mini-series and were only focusing on a couple of moments.





The points of discussion must necessarily "focus on a couple of moments" (or aspects) unless one is to rehash the whole themes of a given work every time one comments at all. The key is to show how those moments are relevant to the course or the message of the work as a whole. The "Leto-isms" I listed were by way of leading up to my statement


Quote:



. . . I wasn't (favorably) impressed by the character or the actor portraying him.





Naturally, I'm not the least bit concerned that you don't like the message, which seems to be the case here.



Quote:



All your criticisms (other than the accent piece) seem to come from the point of view of an outside observer, not someone who has lived on Arrakis.





Indeed, and how long has your residence been there?



Quote:



I'd be asking: "What the heck happened to you?!?"







Quote:



Of course you would, but they didn't because they knew what was happening.






The question is how do they know? And how do we, the audience, know that they know? I didn't get it, and it damned sure was not for want of "paying attention".

My understanding of events is that this transformation is or constitutes an unprecedented event in Fremen history. I'm unclear whether the Fremen's prophecy had foretold of it, even generically, much less in specific details. If this transformation is what is repeatedly referred to in the story as the "golden path", it is never explained, as far as I can tell, and it seems to be an extreme and a shunned course of activity. It remains to the observer---and, yes, in that we're all outsiders, I think---to glean what the term really refers to and what it really means. Running around in the sand like a worm? Becoming a worm? If that is a correct interpretation of all this, it still escapes me why this is supposed to be "necessary". (All of this is guess work, and no more, on my part.) So, if it's truly unprecedented, how and why would the Fremen (and non-Arrakese nobility alike) know what form it would take, and, therefore, remain so nonchalant at its sight? ("Gee, your skin tone sure is coming along nicely"?)

In regards to the obscure cultural references of this or any other otherworldly fictional setting, it is or becomes not a matter of "paying attention", but of understanding them from what the producers have provided. Without an "insider" anchor within the culture itself, there is nothing to do except "guess", based on what seems to be there. And, sure, it's always possible to miss explanations muttered in single lines of dialog (especially, spoken in dialect(s) not the listener's own) in any literature brought to life by players. For your information, that does not necessarily constitute "not paying attention".



Quote:



Your next two points are really about the same subject, Farad'n. He is an intellectual, not a warrior. He does not want to fight, but that doesn't make him a whimp. Ghanima likes him, though she doesn't allow him to see it, but because of the Corrino attempt on her and her brother's lives, she will not allow a formal alliance through marriage between Atreides and Corrino. However, as the Atreides heir's consort, he has influence on the Empire. It's a powerful position, not exactly whimpy.






I said nothing about either the value or the nature of Farad'N's position, only about him. From all I saw, I have concluded that this is a man who for all his life had been, and for all his remaining life would be, manipulated and controlled by others, mostly the women in his life. This, in my book, makes him weak. Many a weak person has occupied powerful or influential positions or offices in history. Being in a powerful, or merely highly influential, position does not mean that the person occupying that office/position is himself not weak. The power of the office and the power of the person need have nothing whatsoever to do with one another.

I saw quite clearly from the beginning, thank you, that the character was supposed to be an intellectual. So what? Because he's an intellectual he's also not a weak, docile individual? That would be an argument worth zero. As far as I can see, by the end of this part of the tale he has merely traded one mistress, his mother, for another, his (maybe) soon-to-be "consort". (She has all the say, it seems.) I wondered only that, since he is supposed to be of noble birth, unlike Ghanima's mother ("Chani") or grandmother ("Jessica"), and, since, as far as I can tell, inheritance in these "noble houses" of the empire of Dune still proceeds by precedence through the males over inheritance through the females, why would he be, or yet let himself be, relegated to being "consort" rather than "husband". The whole point of his going there was to forge a public and official union of the two hostile camps and abate the hostilities. Otherwise, as far as I can tell, he'd never even met the girl he came to marry. So, what attachment would he have that wouldn't be grounded in forging that official union? ("Politics.")

I still consider him a weak and pitiable individual, NOT because he is uninterested in power, but because he seems so docile and manipulable at the hands of others.



Quote:



Leto sounding off at court like a giant worm (actually more like a belligerent (and probably horny) bull elephant). If I had been at court and had heard this, I would've died laughing on the spot.






Quote:



This is the most ridiculous thing you wrote. If you had been there, you would have heard the sound that a worm makes. And on Arrakis, that is a sound that causes fear. You aren't separating fictional story from real life.





Here I wasn't as precise---or as accurate, as it turns out---as I should have been. What I found ludicrous---and still do upon second viewing of the final act of the miniseries---is the sight of the character opening his mouth so wide in imitation of an animal. Maybe it would have worked for me if the sound effect had been perfectly in sync with the actor's action, although I greatly doubt even this. I find it to be like watching an old lip-synched (i.e., poorly dubbed) movie from the Orient. It looked ridiculous. (In combination with the sound-effect, it came off like a gigantic, open-mouthed belch.) Still does.

No matter how something may play on the page, in transformation to "live action" one needs to take care how it plays on the stage (or the screen). The credibility---the realism---the verisimilitude of these sorts of fantastic and/or culture-specific doings depends on the presentation.

How, for instance, does someone who looks as though he might weigh in at about 140-145 lbs. max, fully clothed and after consuming a heavy meal, create enough force by stamping his foot---rather awkwardly, I might add---into the deep sand, no less, to attract a giant worm from miles(?) distant? Unexplained. (Or, maybe I wasn't "paying attention".) As portrayed here, it just comes off as simply ridiculous-looking and totally improbable.

Likewise, the repeated recital of the mantra "Fear is the mindkiller. I will let it pass through me", has never worked for me. Not in the miniseries or in the David Lynch film (named by at least one critic to be the worst ten movies of 1984). I guess I'm just an old skeptic infidel, and, with the kind of presentation it's had so far in both its filmic manifestations, I'm liable to always remain so.

As far as the Arrakese take on the Leto phenomenon . . . . a second viewing (and audition) reveals that what Leto's apparently attempting to imitate is not a worm, but a "lion". He says---and I thought I caught this the first time I saw the episode, but, because of the actor's dialect, was unsure of the word he used---something like "Behold, family! . . . . I am the lion of Arrakis(?) . . . " (I was unsure before whether he had not said line, which made no sense, but I did not connect either interpretation of the word to the animal noise he had priorly made.)

And, as a further note on the nullity of your retort, I look for the reaction shots of the crowd to his behavior in the final court-showdown scene and find only one: his grandmother, Lady Jessica's (Alice Krige), amazed stare---amazement (or awe), NOT fear of any kind. Similarly, no one else seems to be shown "in fear" of him either, since the guards and even his own mad sister have absolutely no hesitation to attack him with pointy weapons. Not a fear reaction! The first(?) time he does the "lion(?) call" occurs in the scene of the death of his father, whom he holds in his arms in front of a full crowd of people, none of whom---NOT ONE---is shown reacting in any way, shape, or form. Whatever animal his cry is supposed to recall, the natives don't seem to be in the least quavery about it. Check the tapes (or whatever)!

Lastly, as to the first mini-series, I think I understood about as much as the average viewer. I asked here ONE question in my original post about it, to which I received ONE---and only one---reply, which I don't even know whether to take seriously. (You didn't volunteer an answer, I noticed.) So, what else is it don't I understand about the original story, pray tell?

Apparently, I committed the sin of not being reverential to the material, which some who are drawn to particular threads on this forum seem to demand of other participants. Well, too bad. I can only go by what I see and hear and I usually note in writing those things which seem to me to be salient and worth pondering at the time. In order to do such things, I assure you, "attention must be paid".