Checking new SACD player with Chesky SACD's: A question... (1 Viewer)

[Lee Scoggins]

John,
Where did I personally attack you? The only thing I said recently is that you did not offer proof that the Accuphase SACD player used the PCM path for DSD conversion.
I think you doth protest too much. There are relentless attacks from time to time on Sony and its hybrids here in the Music forum. Why can't I now use my legitimate beef against DVDAs complete lack of backward compatibility?
Also, David Kawakami of Sony implied at a recent AES that Sony was not issuing hybrids due to a lack of capacity for hybrids. Look, PCM has a big advantage in that lines are converted more readily, but Sony is doing admirable work to create enough momentum to have SACD hybrid lines. I think we will see more Sony hybrids as the format's popularity grows.

The addition of the CD layer addresses an area where the product could be improved and I for one am happy that they're considering this as a future possibility.

No disagreement here, but let's give the Super Audio team proper due for including hybrid capability in the first place.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

FWIW, my primary concern is sound quality.

I agree Rich and that's why I side so strongly with DSD. If you listen to "apples to apples" DSD sounds much better than PCM and a lot less digital, just like real music.
You make some good points also about the convenience. I have become less convinced that big titles, while welcome, will create acceptance. It has to be combinged with lower prices, readily accessible (low-priced) SACD players, and convenient backward compatibility.

 

[KeithH]

John Kotches said:

BMG is releasing Elv1s in mid-December on DVD-A

Wow! I know you have contacts, but where did you hear about this? Is there a link out there with specific information on this disc? Will it have a discrete stereo track? If so, will it be 24/96 or 24/192 (hopefully nothing lower)? What will it have in the way of video?
By the way, BMG should put a CD layer on this disc.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

By the way, I just did some work on an 88.2khz PCM recording that turned out very well.
So I do work with PCM on occassion due to the lower cost of recording for smaller projects.
I will write a story and post it soon. It may suprise the forum how cheap it can be to do a high-rez recording.

 

[Phil A]

Keith, the Elvis announcement has been around for about a month - take your pick from the below:
Link Removed
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=18890980
http://www.elvis.com/news/full_story.asp?id=270

 

[Phil A]

Lee - looking forward to the story. Keith, besides the above I did run into Elvis the other day in the supermarket and he confirmed the release as well.

 

[John Kotches]

Rich,
You don't consider the 300+ (a substantial percentage of available titles) not to be an issue? I certainly do. Do you have any idea of how many of these non-hybrid titles have sold versus the hybrid titles? I don't have the numbers, but I expect that more non-hybrids have sold than hybrids, and this includes the Stones titles.
As it is, Sony's continued issuance of SACD only titles is showing disdain for their customer base. If Sony were serious about the hybrid issue, they would have started construction on a hybrid plant before or concurrent /b] with the release of the format. Here we are 3+ years after introduction and Sony is just bringing up a hybrid line. Want to play that just released Sony artist's title in your car? You still have to buy it on CD. Want to play it back at highest available resolution in your house? You have to buy it on SACD.
Multi-channel is the real differentiating factor here. Had SACD waited for multi-channel to be available, we'd be talking about relatively even numbers of titles. Pumping out the stereo titles (which has no perceived value for consumers) is the current game plan for now on SACD strictly to maintain title lead. Even if a title does sound marginally better on SACD than CD, that isn't a reason to buy for average consumers.
Have you noticed the labels that haven't been subsidized by Sony/Philips aren't changing over to DSD for their masters? I sure have. I think things aren't going to be so rosy if the subsidies disappear on the SACD side.
Further, the fact that Sony had to subsidize ABKCO speaks volumes about the real appeal of the format to record labels. The other majors (Universal, BMG and EMI) are testing the waters wtih limited releases for both formats.
Regards,

 

[John Kotches]

Lee,
Surely someone as well versed in business strategy as you so often mention realizes that its the big titles that win the wars.
Do you really think that the numerous obscure titles from these boutique labels will win the format war when it might sell 5,000 or 10,000 copies?
Also, you need to do some title count homework. Let me help you out here:
Link Removed
416 titles reported by High Fidelity Review on the list sponsored by Meridian.
So if we take the low figure, you're in error by 25+%, or the high number it's more like 40%.
Amazing how those numbers keep growing.
You've also demonstrated that the unsubsidized costs are too high, if there are complaints about gear costs.
Again, if it's too expensive, it simply won't happen.
Regards,

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Keith pulls up his chair for another bout between Super Scoggins and DVD Kotches...

Again, if it's too expensive, it simply won't happen.

Why?
Cost is rarely an issue if value is delivered to the consumer. America is a country of early adopters, one of many reasons we totally rule the world in business.
DVD was expensive at first always.

 

[KeithH]

Phil,
Thanks for the links. I will have to check them out. Those are web sites I don't frequent. I'm surprised there has been no talk of Elv1s on DVD-Audio here. I don't recall seeing anything on Audio Asylum either.
All,
My feeling is that Sony must open the floodgates with hybrid SACDs of big-name artists. Single-layer SACDs just won't cut it with the masses. Look at how they are being marketed right now. They are relegated to the back of Best Buy and Circuit City stores. Circuit City hasn't restocked titles in months. Obviously, if Sony were re-releasing old titles and releasing new titles on hybrids discs, they would be all over the place.
There has been a lot of talk concerning the amount of software available on SACD. The number of SACD titles available means nothing if the breakdown is a large number of single-layer titles and a large number of hybrids from "boutique" labels. Single-layer discs are too limiting. Then, how many people really care about the stuff that Telarc, Chesky, or DMP is putting out on hybrid SACDs? Not very many.
We must put our emotions aside and focus on the average consumer. Their needs, wants, and desires are very different than ours. That said, I feel ABCKO's efforts with the Stones was a big move for SACD. However, who is going to pick up the ball to sustain the momentum? It should be Sony, but I'm afraid it won't be. Imagine if Sony had released Celine Dion A New Day Has Come as a hybrid SACD? What if Sony had released Santana Shamen as a hybrid SACD? I don't know what Sony is waiting for.
It's not just Sony, though. What if Virgin had picked up where ABCKO left off and had released Forty Licks as a hybrid SACD? Forty Licks has been plastered all over "hot titles" displays all over retail stores. Stores are promoting Forty Licks far more aggressively than the ABCKO releases. I was in Seattle on business last week, and the Tower Records there (corner of 5th Ave. and Mercer St. for those who know the area) had the Forty Licks logo painted on one whole side of the building (outside). If only Forty Licks had been released as a hybrid disc.
I am very thankful that we now have Creedence Clearwater Revival, a major American rock band, on SACD. Unfortunately, a small label released the discs. These hybrids are $24.99 each, and are hardly easy to come by. If only these discs had been put out by Fantasy as replacement to the standard CDs, thus being available in every store for just $15 each. Now, it is true that Analogue Productions got Steve Hoffman to do the CCR SACDs. Perhaps a large label would not have done as good a job, but we don't know that.
Frankly, I can't understand how anyone can say that SACD is being marketed effectively to the masses. DVD-Audio isn't either, but far fewer people are making the argument that it is.
NP: Creedence Clearwater Revival Willy and the Poorboys SACD

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Frankly, I can't understand how anyone can say that SACD is being marketed effectively to the masses.

I just want to be clear that I am not making this argument either. But I tire of old, invalid DVDA arguments which lack substance. All the retailers in Atlanta I talk to believe the format is dead. And that despite a very robust home theater environment.

 

[KeithH]

Lee,
I would never say that DVD-Audio is being marketed any more effectively than SACD. In my opinion, neither format is being marketed effectively. I strive to distribute my praise and criticism evenly.
All,
Elusive Disc is now taking pre-orders for the Elv1s DVD-Audio disc. I saw this in an e-mail newsletter that arrived today. They say it will be a multi-channel/stereo disc. Here is the link from the newsletter:
http://rd.bcentral.com/?ID=363820&s=6490985
Unfortunately, I have not been able to get this link to work. I could get to Elusive Disc's home page either, so their site must be down right now.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I would never say that DVD-Audio is being marketed any more effectively than SACD.

No problem Keith, I did not mean to imply you did.
Both formats could use some work.
I hate copy protection because it violates our fair use rights but one can also argue that labels may favor SACD for this reason due to more complex data paths.
Probably another thread discussion topic.

 

[KeithH]

Lee said:

Probably another thread discussion topic.

Yes.