Cheater plug...Really dangerous?? (1 Viewer)

[Levesque]

LOL. 9 against, 5 for it. It's getting interesting. We should start a new poll!! Cheater plug: are you against it, or for it??

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

Bob, Holadem...excellent explanations on WHY we have a ground in our wiring and what the potential without it is.

Since you gentlemen have worked in the electrical field, have you ever heard of a case of an electrical component killing or seriously injuring someone because of cheater plug use?

I'm not trying to be cynical, but I'm curious. The question of whether or not to use a cheater plug comes up quite a bit. I've never read a post of someone that knows of a case where the cheater plug was to blame for serious injury or death. If there is a small short within the component, we may feel it when we touch the said component as someone mentioned earlier....however, if the short is significant enough to injure, it seems that is high enough current to trip the breaker. There are breakers these days that trip when one powers up their high current amplifiers! I would think if significant injury was received with this type of case, there would be more to blame than the cheater plug...faulty wiring, poorly designed component, etc.


Jeremy

 

[Joseph_W]

If there is a small short within the component, we may feel it when we touch the said component as someone mentioned earlier....however, if the short is significant enough to injure, it seems that is high enough current to trip the breaker. There are breakers these days that trip when one powers up their high current amplifiers!

Breakers and fuses are to prevent fires, not prevent bodily injury. Ground fault breakers (ones used in bathrooms and kitchens) are designed to prevent injury. They compare current going in with current going out, if there is a difference (caused by current flowing to ground, possibly through a human), the breaker opens. 120V at 15 amps is enough power to kill a person many times over.

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

Joseph,

I understand your point, however, if there is a short that significant on one end...the breaker will pop! Yes the breaker is a fireproofing mechanism...but fires are started my shorts...whether it is inside the wall or the component on the other end of the wiring.


Jeremy

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

"They compare current going in with current going out, if there is a difference (caused by current flowing to ground, possibly through a human), the breaker opens."

If there is a significant short in the component, there will be disruption in that measurement of in/out current. This will indeed pop the breaker.



Jeremy

 

[Jeff]

I use cheaters on my Parasound amps. I never worry though, because they come on remotely. If you don't have to touch your amp to turn it on, then you have nothing to worry about.



Jeff

 

[Rick Guynn]

Jeremy, the only problem is that only newer houses have GFCI breakers for areas other than the bathrooms.
Having said that, it seems to me that the easiest solution to this problem would be to go ahead and use the cheater plug, but install a GFCI outlet (not a breaker) at the location you are planning on using it.

RG

 

[Blake R]

The use of fuses, circuit breakers, and GFCI devices is only marginally understood by most people, even many electricians I've known over the years. After 11 years in the electrical trade and 14 years as an electrical engineer working in building design I can tell you this, "Cheater plugs" are listed, legal devices, otherwise they could not be sold, because the trial lawyers would own every hardware store in the country. I have never heard of anyone being injured or losing equipment to the use of two wire adapters. On the other hand, I know of only one person in my 42 years who has lost equipment to a lightning strike and yet there are people who will blow $300 on a surge suppression device that is not any better than one you could get for less than half that just to provide the protection against that long shot. Apparently that one in 10,000 shot is worth the diligence. A long shot on an equipment ground apparently is not.

One thing is certain. If a three wire device is plugged into a two wire adapter it no longer has the equipment ground it's power supply was designed to have. Is that important? It might be.

 

[Holadem]

If there is a small short within the component, we may feel it when we touch the said component as someone mentioned earlier....however, if the short is significant enough to injure, it seems that is high enough current to trip the breaker.

Please don't be offended by this, but I am not sure you understood the explanations above. The ground plug (I had writen cheater plug :b) doesn't protect against shorts. Quite the opposite actually, it facilitates them when something has gone wrong, in order to trip the breaker/fuse.
A device with a metallic case. For god knows what reason, one of the live wires of the transformer got disconnected and is touching the case.
Either
1 - The case is grounded (no cheater plug). The wire touching the case is a short, which cause an enormous current flow that fry your expensive setup and hopefully will trip the breaker before a fire starts.
Or
2 - The case is NOT grounded (a cheater plug is being used). It is now at the same potential as the live wire touching it, possibly 110 VAC. When you come and touch your device in blissful ignorance, your body is providing a path to ground, effectively closing the circuit. The current through you depends on your resistance, which depends on several factors (wet floor etc...). The circuit breakers will trip only when that current goes above their rating (15 to 20 amps). Probably won't happen because you will jump/be jolted out of the way.
Of course, there are several factors that might make things work differently. If your device is resting on a metallic rack etc...
What are the chances of a live wire coming in contact with the case? Very little... what are the chances you're gonna have a head on collision today?
I use cheater plugs myself, believe it or not. I just don't like the dismissal of the potential danger.
--
Holadem

 

[Lin Park]

Greg_R said:

The reason I avoid using cheater plugs has nothing to do with safety. The reason your speakers are humming is due to noise being injected into your system. Floating the ground doesn't fix the problem... it merely covers up the indicator of the problem. Your system is still receiving noise (which can't be good for it's sound quality). Find the actual problem (99% of the time it's the CATV or DSS) and fix it (as detailed in past posts)...

This is SO true!!! All of you guys who start talking about imaging, soundstaging, sweet highs, etc. need to realize that if you have cheater plugs in your system, then the hum is still affecting things - just imagine what it would sound like if those effects were removed.

Recently, I was told by someone who has been into audio longer than I've been alive to try plugging everything into 1 wall outlet using a standard power strip (i.e. not a surge protector with a lighted switch) with enough outlets. This not only eliminated the need for my lone cheater plug, it actually made the music sound better. You'll probably think I'm crazy but give it a try. The only difference between the two setups was that everything was plugged into one wall outlet on one 20 amp breaker. No hum - no hiss - just beautiful music. I even tried splitting the system across 2 wall outlets on the same 20 amp breaker and could hear a slight hiss with all equipment on but no music playing. Going back to the single wall outlet setup removed that hiss.

Cheers,
Lin

 

[Ted Kim]

One way around the whole cheater plug issue is to get a power cord wired intentionally reversing the hot and neutral wires. That way you can maintain the safety ground. This can be easily be done if you are experienced with electrical wiring by cutting off the plug, using a new plug, and connecting the ground and reversing the hot and neutral connections inside. Also use a continuity tester to identify which line is which prior to cutting the plug and after installing the new plug double check continuity and insure correct polarity.

Disclaimer
Do this at your own risk.
If you don't know what I'm talking about, don't try it.

Alternately, if you have a detachable power cord, you can special order power cords where the polarity is intentionally reversed. I believe Bob Crump of TG audio sells some stock albeit they are expensive.

 

[Bob_M]

Claude,

>However, do not try this with an AC or fridge! They are wired different, and if the line does not have that ground get it installed! .... Took the VOM to a copper water pipe directly above the fridge and the door to the fridge. The voltage was 120VAC between door and pipe! Nice!... Easy fix, connected the grn. on each end (breaker box and outlet) and all was well. <

I am worried about this. You should not have had 120 between the water pipe and the case of the Frig regardless of the ground hookup in your outlet. Either the water pipe is Hot (very bad) or the frig case was Hot. The equipment ground is only a safety device designed to short out the circuit in event the case does become Hot like stated above. The case should not be Hot by default.

Take that VOM of yours and check for voltage between the water pipe and the ground of a properly wired outlet. That should read zero. If not I would investigate further.

I am no expert but something does not sound right to me.

Bob

 

[Blake R]

Single point grounding Lin. Always a good idea.

 

[Levesque]

We are now at 9 for the cheater plug, and 14 against it. Keep the answers coming!

 

[Claude M]

Bob_M

I think you are correct (it's been 8 years), but I think the neutral and hot were also swapped. I did just what you suggested and found by pipe to be good. I wonder if the outlet had the second grn and was wire correctly would the breaker have tripped?

 

[Bob-N]

Re: question about other factors in using the cheater (without grounding the "loop" or connecting the wire on the cheater plug). The ground is often used as a drain path for EMC emissions. If you disable the ground, the increased electro-magnetic emissions from the equipment could result in interference with other electrical appliances.
Re: equipment with two prongs to start with (no third wire ground). The equipment, from a UL product safety requirements standpoint, has more stringent construction and testing requirements when compared to those with the three prong w/ground. As mentioned above, the ground provides a bit more protection therefore, the UL requirements are a bit more relaxed.
Jeremy, personally no. However, I have known people to get shocked under these conditions and hurt themselves (falling, "pull back" reaction) physically but not killed. I've done it two times (in 11 years) but never hurt myself due to the "backlash" of pulling my hand away.
Tim K, I wouldn't advise that at all. Neutral is normally closer to ground potential and are tied together at the power plant source. By swapping hot and neutral, I THINK(?) that now you could be introducing a voltage potential (within your house) on your ground. Regardless, it's probably not a good idea. See above post for an example.
Holadem, 'xactly.
Bob

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

Thanks guys for your responses. I respect your position because you are part of the industry. However, with the combined experience you guys have...you haven't heard of a single death or serious injury using a cheater plug, I find it hard to compare to car accidents w/o airbags. Car wrecks are VERY commonplace, but cheater plug accidents are very rare.


I only use one cheater, on my high powered amplifier. It has removed the last bit of hum that my cable ground loop isolator could not. If there is a ground hum in your system, I agree that the problem should be isolated so you can attempt a remedy. Cable (RG6) ground loop isolators are available on the cheap from most electronic shops, but sometimes they do not do the entire trick...this can also affect picture quality on the TV. I'm talking about the 300ohm-75ohm isolators.

With that said, I have a hard time believing that this affects your system's sonics. If you remove the ground from the component producing hum and the hum goes away, you've gotten rid of it. The ground wire is what transfers the hum to that component, not the hot/neutral electrical nor the interconnects or speaker wire. If I'm way off base here let me know.

If a ground wire was so necessary, why would not EVERY electrical component designed have a mandatory ground? I don't know that I've paid much attention before...but almost everything I have in my house is UL certified and very few have a 3 prong cord. Vacuum cleaners to clock radios and Curling irons to electric skillets are some that I've found that do NOT have grounded electrical systems. The same amount of electricity is produced from the outlet I run my vacuum from as my HT gear. If an internal short happened to my wife's curling iron, the same amount of electricity would be on the loose as my high powered amp. Why are some things grounded and some not?

Another good point raised earlier. How could cheater plugs legally be sold if they posed such a hazard. They don't even have significant warnings on them that hazards exist!


Jeremy

 

[Paul Clarke]

Sorry Levesque...don't count this one...it's just a reiteration/clarification.

Holadem,

Despite the tone of my previous post (a few back) my take is the same as yours on the subject. Of course the danger is real...much of life deals with danger, vulnerability and exposure in some form or other whether we care to focus upon this or not. In that vein, it is entirely possible that I will be eaten by a Lion tomorrow...just not very probable. So I agree, the potential danger should not be forgotten, just kept in perspective.

 

[Ted Kim]

Tim K, I wouldn't advise that at all. Neutral is normally closer to ground potential and are tied together at the power plant source. By swapping hot and neutral, I THINK(?) that now you could be introducing a voltage potential (within your house) on your ground. Regardless, it's probably not a good idea. See above post for an example.

Bob, what I'm talking about is reversing the hot and neutral in the power cord, not inside the wall. This is essentially the same thing electrically as a cheater plug except the ground is not lifted.

 

[Brian Treinen]

Well, apparently you weren't in Spinal Tap huh? What did they lose, like 3-4 drummers spontaneously combusting? Who says it's not because some roadie used a cheater plug!!
That being said, I for one am against them and would rather address the real issue and remove the noise from the system.