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Captain Marvel (2019)

Discussion in 'Movies' started by Adam Lenhardt, Jul 23, 2016.

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  1. Sam Favate

    Sam Favate Lead Actor

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    There are some good deleted scenes on the blu-ray, in addition to the ones posted above in this thread. It seems Yon-Rogg had a bigger part, and it also seems a few things were changed along the way, such as how Carol got the motorcycle/clothing, and how she came to spar with Yon-Rogg in the beginning.

    The rest of the bonus materials are standard features (although it looks like they had a lot of fun making this), but the deleted scenes stand out.
     
  2. dpippel

    dpippel HTF Premium Member
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    I watched the 4K UHD last night. This was my second viewing of the film, and while the 4K presentation is fabulous, I must say that I'm more underwhelmed with it now than I was after seeing it in the theater. IMO Brie Larson just isn't very good at all in this role, the film has no gavitas, it's mostly boring, and what IS up with that Australian accent that Mendelsohn uses as Talos? Fury's de-aging is indeed very impressive, and Goose was a hoot, but a cat and a younger version of Samuel L. Jackson can't carry a film like this. I was hoping that I'd like it better the second time, and instead finished it with disappointment. I understand I'm in the minority, but I'd put this movie just above The Incredible Hulk, which is at the bottom of the Marvel heap for me. I even liked Thor: Dark World better. Yikes!
     
  3. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Director

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    Left work early sick today, and ended up listening to the audio commentary.

    The contrast with the Russos/Markus & McFeely commentaries was striking: those guys discuss with great specificity what each scene in the movie contributes to the movie as a whole, and how the individual character moments move the characters' larger journeys forward.

    Boden and Fleck have some interesting production anecdotes to share, but they barely discuss story or character at all. When they do, it's mostly in generalities: They wanted to Carol to be kick ass, and make decisions on her own terms. They wanted strong relationships between female characters. The scenes tend to be considered and discussed in isolation, especially the first half of the movie.

    Maybe it's because they were hired much further along in the process, with drafts of the screenplay already written by Nicole Perlman and Meg LeFauve, but after listening to the commentary it seemed like they put less thought into the writing than the Russos did. Maybe that's why it feels more lightweight than most of the other movies. It's telling that the stuff that worked the best and was most interesting to me was the stuff in Louisiana near the end of the movie, which was also the stretch of the commentary where they had the most in-depth things to say.

    Another thought watching the film again: I have no idea where a Captain Marvel sequel goes; Endgame pretty clearly established that Carol sees herself as as cosmic hero, with her attention focused on all of the places that don't have heroes of their own like the Avengers to defend them.

    So that would seem to mean that either the Captain Marvel sequel doesn't take place on Earth at all, and tells a purely extraterrestrial story like the Guardians of the Galaxy movies, or some crisis needs to arise on Earth big enough that the Avengers can't solve it without her. And that seems too high stakes for a stand alone movie.

    But we barely got to see Carol Danvers, human being in this film. If Maria's daughter Monica was eleven in 1995, she would be either 34 or 39 in 2023, depending on whether she got dusted in the Snap. We didn't deal with her issues with her dad. It seems like Carol's got a lot of unfinished business on Earth that would be more interesting that seeing her save a whole new slate of characters we've never met and have no connection to on some distant planet.
     
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  4. Jake Lipson

    Jake Lipson Lead Actor

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    Well, that's not good. Hope you feel better soon, but I appreciate your report on the commentary.

    I feel like this is going to be a controversial opinion, but when I saw the movie in theaters -- I haven't watched the Blu-ray yet -- I felt like this is a First Avenger/Winter Soldier kind of situation. The First Avenger is a good movie for what it is, but Captain America really took off when they got to Winter Soldier and swapped out Joe Johnston for the Russos. I think Brie Larson is great in this role, but the movie around her feels like one of the weaker Phase 1 movie in a Phase 3 world. They don't really seem to have the best handle on what to do with the character, and the stakes of the movie are really unclear in many places. I would not be upset if Marvel jettisons Boden and Fleck for the sequel and goes looking for someone new to shake up this franchise.

    [QUOTE="Adam Lenhardt, post: 4749721, member: 283087"Maybe it's because they were hired much further along in the process, with drafts of the screenplay already written by Nicole Perlman and Meg LeFauve, but after listening to the commentary it seemed like they put less thought into the writing than the Russos did.[/quote]

    Do you mean that they put less thought into the writing than Markus and McFeely did? Because the Russos are not credited writers on any of their films.

    [QUOTE="Adam Lenhardt, post: 4749721, member: 283087"If Maria's daughter Monica was eleven in 1995, she would be either 34 or 39 in 2023, depending on whether she got dusted in the Snap. We didn't deal with her issues with her dad. It seems like Carol's got a lot of unfinished business on Earth that would be more interesting that seeing her save a whole new slate of characters we've never met and have no connection to on some distant planet.[/QUOTE]

    If they want to use Monica in the sequel, she could even be played by Lashana Lynch now (who played Maria in the first film.) That would allow them to keep the actress -- and her chemistry with Brie Larson -- while changing her role.

    The part of the movie that worked the best for me was Carol and Fury and their relationship. One of the things I was disappointed about in Endgame is that they didn't speak to each other. So I'd like to see them come back to that pairing and retain Samuel L. Jackson for the sequel, even if it's only briefly. But for that to happen, it has to be set on Earth since there wouldn't seem to be much reason for Nick Fury to go to space.

    As you pointed out, Marvel is going to have to make a choice as to whether they want to have this series be Earth-bound or cosmic. I could see it working either way, but it fully depends on what they do. Just because we don't know the people on a distant planet that Carol has spent the intervening years with doesn't mean they couldn't make us care about them if the movie is good. I could not have predicted that The First Avenger would do a tonal turn in its sequel and end up with The Winter Soldier, but it was absolutely the right choice.

    If it were me, I would find a writer/director (or a separate writer and director working as a team) with a clear and specific vision for where they want to take the character and what story they want to tell and let them do it. That approach worked beautifully with Joss Whedon (at least on the first Avengers film.) It worked beautifully the Russos and Markus and McFeely. It worked beautifully with James Gunn. It worked beautifully with Taika Waititi. It worked beautifully with Ryan Coogler. Whether Boden and Fleck are those people for Captain Marvel is ultimately for Marvel to decide, but if they are, they need to be much more clear on the sequel than I think they were on the first one.
     
  5. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Director

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    I thought Captain America: The First Avenger was a much better movie than Captain Marvel. I do agree with the fundamental point that Captain America didn't really become the character was meant to be in the MCU until Winter Soldier, because so much of his identity was rooted in him being a man out of time. The First Avenger was him very much in and of his own time, so it was truly an origin story. He didn't really leave the cocoon until the time jump in the final five minutes or so.

    I would be happy with a fresh voice too. But in fairness to Boden and Fleck, they were put in a difficult situation, because Endgame was already in the can when they shot Captain Marvel. Their hands were tied a bit as to where they could take the character, because they had to set up the version of Captain Marvel in Endgame. Whoever does the next Captain Marvel movie, whether it be Boden and Fleck or others, will have a much freer hand to develop the character in accordance with the needs of that film.

    The Russos and Markus & McFeely had an unusual process. The four of them would gather in basically the equivalent of a writer's room on a TV series and spend weeks or even months figuring out the plot and the character arcs and the key story beats up front. So by the time Markus & McFeely went to write the actual screenplays, the thinking I'm talking about was already mostly done. I didn't intend to downplay their contributions, because they've arguably had more impact on shaping the MCU than anybody. But the Russos spent a lot of time up front conceptually their movies with Markus & McFeely that other directors (who weren't writer-directors) didn't.

    Boden and Fleck definitely fall into the writer-director category. But whether they completely overhauled the movie when they came on board or just polished the script that was already there is an open question.

    I agree that the pairing of the two of them was one of the strongest parts of the movie, but they should be wary of leaning too heavily on it lest the sequel feel like a retread. I would definitely be up for them having a few scenes together, though.

    You're absolutely correct, of course, but I think it's a tougher climb. I'm just more intrinsically invested in Earth than other planets -- both because I'm from Earth (or at least a version of Earth that closely parallels the MCU Earth in many ways) and because so many of the other MCU movies have developed the Earth of the MCU. If you set the film elsewhere, you have to do the hard work of making the audience invested in whatever planet is under threat. I never really gave two craps about Xandar, for example, but I didn't really need to since the movie's primary concern was the fates of the Guardians themselves.

    Carol has the same problem that Superman has: She's one of the most powerful beings in the universe. There is very little anywhere that poses a serious physical threat to her. So the tension can't come from whether she'll survive. It has to come from whether she'll succeed in her mission. And for that to work, we need to have a reason to care about the outcome. Definitely not impossible if it's not an Earth story. But definitely harder.

    I agree 100 percent on this point. With Captain Marvel, they had a story that they needed to tell to set up Endgame. The second Captain Marvel movie won't have the tail wagging the dog like that, so it should be about a filmmaker or filmmakers who have a story worth telling.
     
  6. Jake Lipson

    Jake Lipson Lead Actor

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    Right, and yet she wasn't actually in Endgame all that much, to the point where she even says "You won't see me for a long time" and drops out of the film in the second act. So the character development that she had throughout this film was still mostly on Boden and Fleck to execute.

    I agree that The First Avenger is a superior film to Captain Marvel, and Joe Johnston did a good job making the movie he was asked to make. But the change in directors certainly helped elevate those movies and that character to new heights. I think the potential exists for Captain Marvel 2 to do the same thing for Carol. So many elements of this movie, especially the cast, work, that they've certainly got the bones of it.

    The difference between The First Avenger and Captain Marvel is that The First Avenger made $300-something million worldwide in the relative infancy of the non-Iron Man MCU, and was the last film distributed by Paramount, so the MCU wasn't yet integrated into the Disney machine the way it is now. The movie did well for itself at the time and considering the circumstances in which it came out, but didn't set the world on fire. Captain Marvel made a over a billion dollars and was an absolute smash hit. So is Marvel going to want to change out the director on a film which was a much bigger success, at least financially speaking? Or will their inclination be not to mess with what their accounting department is clearly very happy with?
     
  7. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Director

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    I think the bigger difference is that Joe Johnston was a legend in the film industry, whereas this was the first blockbuster for Boden and Flick. Johnston was signed for a two-picture deal, and he was the one who pushed for building the sequel around the Winter Soldier. But then he signed onto Not Safe for Work and Marvel didn't want to wait for him. Given that that movie ended up going straight to VOD, I wonder if he regrets that decision. But he was at a point in his career where he didn't need Marvel. And after phase one, Kevin Feige was more interested in collaborators than established filmmakers with singular visions.

    Boden and Fleck fit soundly into that latter category. The question is whether Feige is looking for collaborators who deliver exactly what you'd expect from a Marvel movie, or collaborators like James Gunn and Ryan Coogler that are comfortable in the Marvel Studios ecosystem and taking notes, but also bring their own special distinctive sauce.
     
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  8. Message #908 of 927 Jun 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
    Jake Lipson

    Jake Lipson Lead Actor

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    I doubt it. He's been talking about retirement recently anyway, so he's clearly winding down his career. The Silver Chair was set up at Sony and was supposed to be his final film before Netflix bought The Chronicles of Narnia instead. I wonder what he'll do now. It would be kind of sad if reshoots on The Nutcracker and the Four Realms wound up as his final directing credit.

    So far, Feige has gotten much better results, creatively, with the latter, but this film feels like the former. But since it made a billion dollars anyway, they might not want to tinker with the formula much, in which case Boden and Fleck would be asked back. While I don't mean to imply that it's her decision by any means, I would think that Brie Larson might have a seat at the table in any discussion about potential replacements.

    In any case, Captain Marvel 2 is almost surely included in Marvel's upcoming slate announcement which they're going to do later this summer. It would make sense if we find out then whether Boden and Fleck are back along with the release date.
     
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  9. Colin Jacobson

    Colin Jacobson Lead Actor

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    I agree that it's not a great commentary. It's not BAD, and we learn a bit about the film, but it's somewhat superficial and not a particularly enchanting listen...
     
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  10. TJPC

    TJPC Producer

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    This is good to know. I watch only one viewing with commentator per movie if it is available. I research what is best and listen to it.
     
  11. TonyD

    TonyD Who do we think I am?
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    I don’t understand this comment.
    If a movie has 2 or more very good commentary tracks you only listen to one them?
     
  12. TJPC

    TJPC Producer

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    Yes, I have 1000s of discs and only have time for one re-watch per new disc.
     
  13. Jake Lipson

    Jake Lipson Lead Actor

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    If you only plan to rewatch each new disc once, why do you buy that many? It seems like a rental would serve your purposes and cost less money.

    Also, there is only one commentary track on Captain Marvel. Both Boden and Fleck are on it, but it's one track.
     
  14. TonyD

    TonyD Who do we think I am?
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    Yeh that’s pretty absolute.
    There are many that have several very interesting tracks.

    You don’t even have to actively look at the screen for a,commentary track. Just have it on in the background.
     
  15. TJPC

    TJPC Producer

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    To each his own! Rental discs are not available in this area, except the public library. My collection includes all new Marvels, musicals on Blu ray, the two Walking Deads, bargoons I come across etc. etc.

    In the past few years I buy new Blu rays and play them once (twice if there is a commentary) and put them on my shelves. This is done right away to make sure new discs are OK. I almost never buy a disc for a movie I have not seen over the years on TV or theatrically

    There is so much media, and so many new blus I want, I never have time to watch anything more than once. I have made hundreds of DVDs from silent and classic movies from TCM also. They are shelved with a sticker to mark them as unwatched. I do plan to someday watch my favourites again, but basically never have the time because of the backlog of unwatched ones. Luckily I also plan to live forever.
     
  16. TonyD

    TonyD Who do we think I am?
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    For sure!
     
  17. Tino

    Tino Executive Producer
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    Ever think about just buying them digitally on iTunes? If would be much cheaper with all the same extras including commentaries. And many are 4K where only the Blu Ray was released or available.
     
  18. TJPC

    TJPC Producer

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    With my set up, iTunes only is available on my computer, not on my home theatre. Much much less is available in Canada anyway.

    I just scanned through my recent comments here, and although it may sound snotty, I don’t believe I either expressed dissatisfaction with my collection practices, or asked for suggestions or advice!;)
     
  19. Joe Wong

    Joe Wong Second Unit

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    Cap M is middle of the MCU pack for me, though I'm fascinated by her character (strongest in the MCU!) and was and still am quite excited for her adventures.

    Perhaps some of the indifference, or disparate reactions, towards the film stems from the (literal) signal in Infinity War that she would be the one who could turn the tide against Thanos. And so maybe audiences were eagerly awaiting her intro film to see what grand, perhaps even epic, adventures such a powerful hero could be in. But when the film opened, what we got was tonally different to the end of Infinity War. Nothing wrong with that, since it is set 20+ years ago, but maybe that's what led to the range of opinions.

    Anyways, just a thought.;)
     
  20. Joe Wong

    Joe Wong Second Unit

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    I'll add my criticism here of the accent... but from a more technical viewpoint (very much IMO, of course, as someone who grew up in Australia). If an Australian accent was what Mendelsohn was going for, I thought it wasn't Australian enough! :D Or maybe it's more of a regional Aussie accent that I'm not used to...hmmm... maybe I've been away too long. ;)

    Out of curiosity, what accent were you expecting from a Skrull?
     

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