Danny Richie
Stunt Coordinator
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2002
- Messages
- 171
This has been an interesting thread, and I really find very few threads on any message boards interesting.
Watching you guys in your thought processes and using each other as sounding boards with the issues you have has been very helpful for me.
I love seeing people carefully weighing out the pros and cons in efforts to make good decisions.
Since some of what was said was directed to me I will respond in a direct way.
I found what Phil said here to be particularly interesting:
"Not bashing the AV1+'s at all, as I really would like to hear a pair, but I would really question if they are in the same performance category as the Jag's or Rhythms.
If you take and add up the cost of all of the drivers in a pair of AV1+'s, they total up to less than it costs to buy (1)Scan Speak 18W/1845 7" mid-woofer."
Maybe I should raise my prices so I would have a higher perceived value? Not!
Okay, I'll join in on your comparisons a little, but not on subjective issues. I'll leave the performance comparisons to you guys.
I'll have you look at specific or factual components of the comparisons.
First of all I don't think ACI or North Creek has had any of our drivers but what they use is commonly available off the shelf drivers and I have worked with those. So lets look at drivers.
Tweeters are a good place to start.
The GR-T1 is often compared by others to those in the Scan Speak line. Just last month on the Mad board it was being compared to the Scan Speak 9500. Respected designer Dennis Murphy said he like it as well as the 9500. Some others disagreed. The point is it really is comparable. It happens all the time.
I have always like the 9900 Revelator tweeter. I think it is one of the best soft domes made.
One of my designs using it can be seen here at Speaker City: http://www.speakercity.com/GRProject...vProject.shtml
So, I have had it side by side with our tweeter.
Is ours better? No, certainly not. Are they comparable? in many ways yes, but the Revelator is clearly a better sounding tweeter. Is it eight times as good? It cost eight times as much. I think there is point of diminishing returns there somewhere. For most people that point is reached pretty quickly in this comparison. For a few it is not.
The comparison is close enough however that if I put nothing more than a poly cap on the Revelator and put a film and foil cap on the GR-T1, and match the output level, the comparison is actually pretty close.
Lets look at the woofers.
There is a big price disparity again, but look at the real performance.
Can the GR-130 really be compared to the Scan Speak 8545? Is it an apples to apples comparison as Jeffery said. No it is really not fair to compare that heavy 7" woofer with a more nibble, faster, better detailed, light weight little 5.25 inch woofer like the GR-130.
While the GR-130 excels and betters it in several areas of performance in many areas it gives up a few things to the larger woofer. Low end extension is one thing and along with that is less distortion in lower frequencies due to the thicker stiff cone of the 8545. But then again the GR-130 is not called upon to play real low anyway.
This also comes with a price though. More low frequency extension means less sensitivity. This woofer is really about 87 to 87.5db in the sensitivity department. factor in about 3 or 4db worth of baffle step compensation and sensitivity is around 84db.
No thanks. I like the low powered tube amps way to much. To me that is a serious drawback.
For still less money I have found that the PHL woofers are much better, and I think clearly a level of performance above. I used a pair of 16 ohm PHL 1240's and after completely compensating for all baffle step loss the pair still had 91db sensitivity and was still 8 ohms. What you give up with them is low frequency extension, but that is what big woofers are for.
A better comparison would be comparing the 8545 to our GR-165 6.5" woofer. In our Paradox-3 the pair of 165's will play down to a -3db of 35Hz while still maintaining many of the better qualities in other areas as well.
Also the upper ranges of our woofers have less break-up than the 8545 and less components can be used to control them. There is a lot to be said for a crossover network on the woofers to be nothing more than one foil inductor verses having to pack on all the dynamic robbing components of a 4th order electrical network.
Okay back to comparing the kits you guys are talking about....
Lets look at components involved.
With ACI who knows? They really don't tell you anything. I see no measurements for the Jags at all. Impedance is somewhere.... 8 ohms average rated..... no minimum dip at x frequency, nothing.
With North Creek you can see for yourself someone did their homework because they show it to you. All measurements are clearly posted. So are pictures of their network.
I have not tried the North Creek caps, nor do I know who makes them, but I hear they are very good. They are however just a poly cap to my knowledge.
Our kits include not only Axon poly caps but each is by-passed with a custom made .1 uf Seti that is is a real improvement over just a poly cap alone. This combo is very close to the sound of some film and foil caps with much less money spent.
All of our kits also include foil inductors. I feel (subjective part here) as do many others that the foil inductors are a clear improvement over wire wound coils. I could hear immediate differences the first time I tried them. The foil is much more open, less congested, more natural sounding. Objectively the foil inductors have much less self inductance as current passes through them too.
North Creek uses the wire wound inductors. I am guessing ACI does the same. They are about half the price of foil. Was it worth twice as much to me? Obviously, foil is now all I use.
Go ahead set price aside and listen.
I can now see some real benefit to sending around a few demo models like you guys have suggested. I believe I will.
Then you guys can answer all those questions for yourselves and share them with each other.
Do I think our less expensive kits will outperform those mentioned? I couldn't say. That would be very subjective.
Do I think they would sound as good or comparable? I think that has already been answered. People have been comparing them already.
Do I think the others mentioned could possibly sound 2.5 times as good? Like Phil said they are 2.5 times as much. Somehow I have a hard time believing that, and I think that when you guys get the chance to judge for yourselves you will reach the same conclusion. Why else would I be willing to send a few demo pairs out there?
In a more dollar to dollar comparison I think the kit listed there at Speaker City, here again: http://www.speakercity.com/GRProject...vProject.shtml would easily best them all. Higher sensitivity, more stable impedance, easy load to drive, and much lower extension, etc. After all I have worked with all of the drivers we have been talking about.
A hope this participation in your debate was useful information and I hope it did not sound too biased. I tried to focus on the objective only.
Watching you guys in your thought processes and using each other as sounding boards with the issues you have has been very helpful for me.
I love seeing people carefully weighing out the pros and cons in efforts to make good decisions.
Since some of what was said was directed to me I will respond in a direct way.
I found what Phil said here to be particularly interesting:
"Not bashing the AV1+'s at all, as I really would like to hear a pair, but I would really question if they are in the same performance category as the Jag's or Rhythms.
If you take and add up the cost of all of the drivers in a pair of AV1+'s, they total up to less than it costs to buy (1)Scan Speak 18W/1845 7" mid-woofer."
Maybe I should raise my prices so I would have a higher perceived value? Not!
Okay, I'll join in on your comparisons a little, but not on subjective issues. I'll leave the performance comparisons to you guys.
I'll have you look at specific or factual components of the comparisons.
First of all I don't think ACI or North Creek has had any of our drivers but what they use is commonly available off the shelf drivers and I have worked with those. So lets look at drivers.
Tweeters are a good place to start.
The GR-T1 is often compared by others to those in the Scan Speak line. Just last month on the Mad board it was being compared to the Scan Speak 9500. Respected designer Dennis Murphy said he like it as well as the 9500. Some others disagreed. The point is it really is comparable. It happens all the time.
I have always like the 9900 Revelator tweeter. I think it is one of the best soft domes made.
One of my designs using it can be seen here at Speaker City: http://www.speakercity.com/GRProject...vProject.shtml
So, I have had it side by side with our tweeter.
Is ours better? No, certainly not. Are they comparable? in many ways yes, but the Revelator is clearly a better sounding tweeter. Is it eight times as good? It cost eight times as much. I think there is point of diminishing returns there somewhere. For most people that point is reached pretty quickly in this comparison. For a few it is not.
The comparison is close enough however that if I put nothing more than a poly cap on the Revelator and put a film and foil cap on the GR-T1, and match the output level, the comparison is actually pretty close.
Lets look at the woofers.
There is a big price disparity again, but look at the real performance.
Can the GR-130 really be compared to the Scan Speak 8545? Is it an apples to apples comparison as Jeffery said. No it is really not fair to compare that heavy 7" woofer with a more nibble, faster, better detailed, light weight little 5.25 inch woofer like the GR-130.
While the GR-130 excels and betters it in several areas of performance in many areas it gives up a few things to the larger woofer. Low end extension is one thing and along with that is less distortion in lower frequencies due to the thicker stiff cone of the 8545. But then again the GR-130 is not called upon to play real low anyway.
This also comes with a price though. More low frequency extension means less sensitivity. This woofer is really about 87 to 87.5db in the sensitivity department. factor in about 3 or 4db worth of baffle step compensation and sensitivity is around 84db.
No thanks. I like the low powered tube amps way to much. To me that is a serious drawback.
For still less money I have found that the PHL woofers are much better, and I think clearly a level of performance above. I used a pair of 16 ohm PHL 1240's and after completely compensating for all baffle step loss the pair still had 91db sensitivity and was still 8 ohms. What you give up with them is low frequency extension, but that is what big woofers are for.
A better comparison would be comparing the 8545 to our GR-165 6.5" woofer. In our Paradox-3 the pair of 165's will play down to a -3db of 35Hz while still maintaining many of the better qualities in other areas as well.
Also the upper ranges of our woofers have less break-up than the 8545 and less components can be used to control them. There is a lot to be said for a crossover network on the woofers to be nothing more than one foil inductor verses having to pack on all the dynamic robbing components of a 4th order electrical network.
Okay back to comparing the kits you guys are talking about....
Lets look at components involved.
With ACI who knows? They really don't tell you anything. I see no measurements for the Jags at all. Impedance is somewhere.... 8 ohms average rated..... no minimum dip at x frequency, nothing.
With North Creek you can see for yourself someone did their homework because they show it to you. All measurements are clearly posted. So are pictures of their network.
I have not tried the North Creek caps, nor do I know who makes them, but I hear they are very good. They are however just a poly cap to my knowledge.
Our kits include not only Axon poly caps but each is by-passed with a custom made .1 uf Seti that is is a real improvement over just a poly cap alone. This combo is very close to the sound of some film and foil caps with much less money spent.
All of our kits also include foil inductors. I feel (subjective part here) as do many others that the foil inductors are a clear improvement over wire wound coils. I could hear immediate differences the first time I tried them. The foil is much more open, less congested, more natural sounding. Objectively the foil inductors have much less self inductance as current passes through them too.
North Creek uses the wire wound inductors. I am guessing ACI does the same. They are about half the price of foil. Was it worth twice as much to me? Obviously, foil is now all I use.
Go ahead set price aside and listen.
I can now see some real benefit to sending around a few demo models like you guys have suggested. I believe I will.
Then you guys can answer all those questions for yourselves and share them with each other.
Do I think our less expensive kits will outperform those mentioned? I couldn't say. That would be very subjective.
Do I think they would sound as good or comparable? I think that has already been answered. People have been comparing them already.
Do I think the others mentioned could possibly sound 2.5 times as good? Like Phil said they are 2.5 times as much. Somehow I have a hard time believing that, and I think that when you guys get the chance to judge for yourselves you will reach the same conclusion. Why else would I be willing to send a few demo pairs out there?
In a more dollar to dollar comparison I think the kit listed there at Speaker City, here again: http://www.speakercity.com/GRProject...vProject.shtml would easily best them all. Higher sensitivity, more stable impedance, easy load to drive, and much lower extension, etc. After all I have worked with all of the drivers we have been talking about.
A hope this participation in your debate was useful information and I hope it did not sound too biased. I tried to focus on the objective only.
I'd love to compare them to the Jags and to my Paradigm Studio 40's.
