Can somebody please, please help me find a new amp!! (long post) (1 Viewer)

[Michael R Price]

The Stereophile measurements of the Paradigm Studio 100 v.2 included an 89.5db/2.83v sensitivity and the impedance dips to 3 ohms in the bass and lower midrange. Hey, just like my speakers. Unless I figure out what makes amplifiers sound dynamic, I'm going to have to recommend that you purchase an amp capable of at least 300 watts into 4 ohms. The 200w/8ohm stereo amps you've mentioned should be good.

James, here's what I think you should do. Buy a good quality 200+ watt stereo amp. Use the DA-5ES to power your surround channels or buy a decent 5-channel amp in the 100-150 watt range. But to get better music quality you really should focus on the source too... try an outboard DAC or preamp. IMO, there's a lot of unnecessary circuitry in that receiver messing up the sound.

 

[james e m]

Again thanks for the info everybody has been giving. I just started doing some research into the more audio friendly amps like Classe, Lexicon, Pass Labs, etc today.

My budget is no higher than $2k and I do need to make a decision in the coming months. I'd explain but it's a long story. I'm a teacher and I have spring break right now so I'm doing all the research now. Although I wouldn't mind buying a two channel amp this week so I can bring those 100s to life!

I did do some digging on the Anthem amps and I have two possible concerns.
1. The MCA 5 is 17 inches deep and my rack is only 15 inches deep.
2. Although this isn't a real concern, but the MCA2 is only 185 watts with both channels driven, where the Rotel RB-1080 is 200 watts with all channels driven.

Tomorrow I'm going to a B&K dealer and a Parasound dealer, so hopefully they will have some good deals.

Should I still consider my original plan of buying an Outlaw amp? I could still get the 770 or a couple Outlaw mono block in combination with their 5 channel amp. That would give me more power. Would that be a better option than the Rotel?

I could afford to do a Anthem MCA20 (200 all channels driven) and an Anthem PVA5 (I forgot how many watts). What do you think?

I guess I'm jus trying to figure out if anything would be a better option than the Rotel.

Michael, I do plan on upgrading my cd player in the future and maybe switching to an outboard dac too.

 

[Scott Oliver]

I will reiterate that if you are listening to 75% music, I am not sure why you are so set on just adding a multichannel amp. The best thing you could do for music lstening is to just get the receiver out of the music loop. As long as the receiver is in the loop it will do you no good to upgrade your CD player, purchase an outboard DAC, or get a Rega TT.

Unless you are planning on doing all your music listening in multichannel, I think your best move with a $2K budget would be to reply to one of these two ads, again if music is your true top priority:
Krell 300il integrated 200Wx2 8ohms
Plinius 8200 MK2 integrated w/phono 175Wx2 8ohms

 

[Chu Gai]

One of them educators, huh?
I think at this point you're probably feeling a bit overwhelmed and trying to find a compelling reason to go one way and not another. That and you don't want to be thinking...god, if i'd only realized this or waited for that. Two grand is a substantial amount of money and you want to get bang for the buck.
I think you ought to start by making a list of the amps you've seen and writing down some basic specifications. For example, dimensions, power@8 ohms, power@4 ohms, headroom (how much power will it deliver for brief periods of time), S/N, THD, etc. To that you've got to list other features if they're important to you such as 12 volt triggers, balanced XLR connections, warranty, what do you do if there's a problem, who pays shipping costs, loaner available, appearance (yes you'll be looking at the bastard for some time), space requirements for ventilation, weight (your rack's got to hold it), your perceptions of construction quality (fit and finish acceptable...anything loose...etc.). If it's used, you need to determine what your options are if for some reason you want to return it. Is there a restocking fee? Was there a transferrable warranty? What if the seller says, "It worked for me" but you get it DOA, what's he/she going to do about it?

Then spend some time on the web and see if you can dig up some reviews and hopefully those that include measurements. Incorporate them in your table.

The Outlaw's are a viable alternative. While there's been some issues with some products regarding a hum if you will, they seemed to be very diligent and accomodating towards their customers. Warranty's good too.

As you go up the price chain you generally find a lot of attention lavished upon appearance, weight, and other things. Yes, some may even use different internal components, topologies, larger capacitors, why saint's be praised....silver wiring! As to the sonic benefits, that's highly debateable.

You've got time. Think about what else is important to you and weigh it appropriately. Likely you'll come up with a short list that you can't decide upon. Consider going to the final arbitrator...your significant other...show her the pictures and say 'Choose honey'.

Highly competent CD players with inaudbible levels of distortion are easily available for under $500 and this even includes DVD players doing double duty. As far as a turntable...sheesh the Rega's pretty and all i can say is you must have a substantial collection of vinyl that's not available on CD or the like.

 

[james e m]

Scott,
You do have a very valid point with spending a bulk of the money on a better two channel amp and the idea is intriguing, but I really do want an amp that will power all 7 of my speakers. If I remember correctly the way Sony has it's assignable amps set up is silly. I don't think I can just add a stereo amp and have the Sony just power the other speakers.

If I add a stereo amp I think (I don't have the manual with me) I can either a) Have the 100s powered by the stereo amp and the Sony will power the 4 surrounds without powering the center channel or b) Have the 100s powered by the stereo amp and the Sony will power the 3 surrounds and the center channel. Stupid I know.

So I thought a compromise to this would be going to a separate 2 channel amp for the fronts and a 5 channel amp for the surrounds. I may consider biwiring the fronts, but I'm not sure.



To tell you the truth I don't know a whole lot about what to look for as far as specs are concerned. I don't really know how to read the S/N, THD, damping factor, IM distortion etc... If you could tell me what to look for that would be great, because I only have a vague understanding of what to look for.

I know I will be using unbalanced connectors, so if anybody has any cheap recomendations that would be great too.

As far as the Rega, that will be in the future and I do have plenty of vinyl that is not on cd. Maybe about 300-400, not a ton, but a good amount.

Thanks again guys for the advice!
James

 

[Kevin_R_H]

James,

I'll chime in again. First of all, I'm assuming your SONY Receiver is a 7.1 unit. If it has "Pre Outs" for the Main Speakers, it will work exactly as Scott suggests.

To hook it up to the Main Speakers, you currently run speaker wire from the SONY to the Main Speakers. To add a stereo amp into this loop, you will have to run an interconnect from the SONY's "Pre Outs for Mains" into the stereo amp. Then this stereo amp will have speaker cable running to your Main Speakers.

All other speakers will work the same as they do now when watching DVDs. Your 7.1 enjoyment will be improved only somewhat (better power to the mains & the receiver is no longer tasked with this chore).

But your music reproduction could be greatly improved. If this were an integrated amp, you would then have all 2-channel sources hooked directly into this integrated stereo amp, bypassing your receiver. As I said before, I beleive you should ensure none of your 2-channel signals pass through your SONY receiver.

When Scott says improving your sources will have limited effect on the quality of sound as long as they are patched into your receiver, he means he feels your SONY is already the "lowest common denominator" in your signal path. I agree with him.

You claim you "want one amp to power all your speakers". For those of us who enjoy 2-channel music (and don't have an unlimited budget), I feel this is ABSOLUTELY the wrong philosophy for spending cash. Remember, reproducing music to an audiophile level is challenging - reproducing the dialog and effects for HT is not. It's like dedicating as much money to ceiling fans as you do to your A/C unit for your home. They have different roles. One is more important than the other, and in most homes, will have more money invested.

But not everyone. Some people don't listen to 2-channel at all, and there is no reason to throw the lion's share of cash at this capability (while short-changing the rest). Just like some home owners don't require A/C at all.

Kevin

 

[Albert Damico]

Somebody has brought it up and I agree that you should take a serious look at Sherbourn. www.sherbourn.com This company is owned by Ron Fone and Eric Tang from NAD and McIntosh. Their amps are true monoblock design with seperate power supplies, seperate torodial transformers, etc. for each amp. (hence monoblock) The 7/2100 weighs in at 115 lbs, has blanced XLR inputs, and can be bridged. At an honest 200 watts per channel at 8 ohms and 300 at 4 ohms this amp is beautiful in both quality and performance. It can be had well under your budget, brand new from an authorized dealer. (PM me and I will share the contact) I am not an expert, but I listened to just about everything out there for a few months and believe I made the right call. I also have an NAD in my music room, a Yamaha in my 2nd HT room, and the Sherbourn is clearly superior. But this is just my opinion!

 

[Terry St]

You're going to get a ton of opinions about how much amp power you need. Unfortunately, most of them won't consider the sensitivity of your speakers, the size of your room, or your prefered listening levels. (Have you ever measured that last item? It would be useful to post here.) The sensitivity of your speakers in particular is important. Swapping your speakers in for something 3dB more sensitive (or listening at 3dB less volume) will give you just as much extra headroom as upgrading from a 200W amp to a 400W amp. The difference in price between a 200W and 400W amp from the same manufacturer is often greater than the cost of a pair of a brand new pair of Studio 100's! (At Canadian prices at least.)

Unless you can find a good deal I'd stick with a 200W amp and try different speakers if you find yourself short on headroom. It may be more economical. I've demo'd Studio 100's in my own home. They're good speakers, and are actually more sensitive than most people think despite looking like something out of "Space: 2001". You're probably just fine with a 200W amp in a 4000ft3 room.

Another option you may want to consider when buying amps is to buy them used off of sites like Audiogon. Amps are a lot like cars. They drop in value by a third or more the moment you walk out of the store with them. The only thing to be careful of is warranty service. A lot of amp manufacturers will not allow their warranties to be transferred. Some will though.

 

[Michael R Price]

James,

Buy a used, higher quality 2 channel amplifier. Then you have to decide between buying a good CD player, or a cheap CD player and a good DAC.

 

[james e m]

Alright, I am resurrecting this thread because I have been doing more research and I just got back in town. First I wanted to thank Chu for the detailed PM, I really appreciated that. Thanks for all the information. I have I kind of changed direction as to what I was looking for. I think I am interested in buying a great 200 watts x 7 amp. I think this, along with rack space issues will give me the most bang for my buck.

My budget is only $2000 and this amp needs to last a lifetime! The finalists, as of right now, are:

1. B&K Reference 7270: I was told that this has the same guts as the 200.7.
The concern I have is does it run 200watts with all 7 channels driven?

Also this amp does not have balanced inputs (which I would not use for a number of years, if at all). Here is a review of it.

Reference 7270

Frequency Response
5-45kHz

Dapening Factor (50Hz)
450

Input Sensitivity
1.4V

Input Impedance (ohms)
33.2k

THD (S+N)
.09% @ 1 kHz

Power Rating 8 ohms
200W @ 1 kHz

Power Rating 4 ohms
375W @ 1 kHz

Slew Rate
14v/µs

Amperage (peak-to-peak)
75

Signal to Noise Ratio, A Weighted
95dB

Dynamic Headroom
1.2 dB

Level Controls
7

2. Sherbourn 7/2100 : I like this amp a lot and I think I am leaning towards this but I read here that the amp may not be 200 watts with all 7 channels driven.

3. ATI AT 2007: I just sort of stumbled on this amp and I don't know much about it, but it fits in my budget. I can't find any reviews and I don't know what it is rated with all 7 channels driven.

So what do you guys think? I could use some technical advice because I can't read specs that well.

 

[Chu Gai]

Well generally you're going to need more power up front, so the rears are less of an issue. The Sherbourn I'm pretty sure is the getting their amp from the same as place as Outlaw: Eastech. This is not bad nor good. It just is. Personally, I find it kind of interesting that when one emails Sherbourn, they get a response from an AOL addresss. At least I did. Please, no slams from the Sherbourn crowd, just an observation on my part.
Sheesh, that B&K review was done as a jpg...There's no balanced outputs on this unit, but seeing as your preamp or receiver's not going to be far away, who cares?
It would seem that they're all pretty capable amps and I'm going to assume, that for your HT system, that you'll be running separate lines into the room and doing sensible things like keeping dimmers and other electronics off the circuit. Kinda nice would be to run a separate panel box for the room and maybe put in some nice outlets for that manly look and their general robustness.

A lifetime is a long time and I appreciate that new houses have a way of sucking up money faster than a streetwalker on Hollywood Blvd. When you do purchace, consider buying it with a credit card that has a dbl the manufacturer's warranty or something like that. If your B&K source is close to you, see if they'll let you demo the amp at home just so you can determine if there are any hum issues when you run the receiver into it.

Lotsa good choices there...tough to pick ain't it! Personally I'd be waiting till I got into the house as the economy's still tough and I'm figuring sales are a little tough too...maybe tough enough that either prices will drop or discounts will increase.

 

[james e m]

Chu,
Is there anything in that review that would lead you to guess what the B&K 7270 is rated at with all 7 channels driven? It's very important that this amp should be able to run 200 watts x 7.

Do you think the B&K might be a better option for 2 channel listening since it is not a multiple mono block config in one box like the Sherbourn? I'm guessing the B&K would have more power with just 2 channels running, am I correct?
Thanks,
James

 

[Chu Gai]

I think if you can't find a more comprehensive review you should emai or phone them for clarification.

 

[Thomas_Berg]

i still think you should seriously look into either a 2-ch or 3-ch amp of higher quality for the front and stick with a lower-powered NAD/Rotel/Parasound for the surround channels. the mains are what matters most, and you'll notice much more improvement overall by spending more $$ up front.

 

[PaulHeroy]

James, one question: why are you saying that it's so vital for the amp to be able to push 200 x 7 channels all driven? I don't think ANY amps in your price range are likely to do this as it would require not only a very stout power supply but likely a dedicated AC circuit. And from the source material perspective, what in the world have you ever heard or are likely to hear that would have full volume signals to all 7 channels? There's very little of this type of content.

I'd think that the Sherbourn is a great option for you, but the others should do well too, even the Outlaw. Since you're buying this as a very long term purchase, I'd also research the reliability, customer support and stability of the company behind the amp.

 

[Ricky T]

James,

A friend of mine is thinking about selling his B&K 7270. He's using a Bryston 6BST for his front 3 and wants to go Bryston all around PM me if you are interested.

 

[Albert Damico]

James:

In following the link that you provided, it led me to this post, which I believe in of concern to you.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IIt measured at 253 into 1 channel, 241 into 2 channels, and 206 into 5 channels. But these measurements were taken at a much easier 1000Hz at clipping (3% THD). If it is doing 206 into 5 channels at midband and clipping, then it is likely to do no more than 180 into 7 channels from 20 to 20K at low distortion ... if that.
------------------------------------------------------------
Answer
-------------------
As stated above, I don't see how this can be accurate. The Sherbourn has 7 true monoblocks and 7 transformers. They share nothing more than 2 power cables. As stated previously, either the power outlet couldn't keep up (doubtful) or their was a problem with the testing method used.
----------------------------------------------------------

Not only do I agree with the response, I spoke with both Ron and Eric at Sherbourn and they validated that there had to have been an issue with the testing method. You should give them a call. They will return your call and will take the time to help explain their products. I love my 7/2100, and I looked at a LOT of amps and listened to them as well. I had more money to spend, but ended up, pleasantly, spending less for a much higher quality amp, IMO

 

[Yogi]

Paradigm is actually somewhat forward to bright to my ears so I would mate it with a warm sounding amp. When it comes to warm there is no beating B&K followed by Parasound and Rotel. Anthem, Aragon, are leaning towards neutral to forward and ATI/Outlaw is definetly bright. Dont really like Sunfire sound esp at low volumes. You have to crank it up high for its sound to open up and I usually dont listen that high. The only amp I cant comment on is the Sherbourn as I have not heard it. But from the rave reviews I hear I believe that its warm to neutral sounding, but you have to listen it for yourself.

Also like Chu said you first will have to look at your actual room configuration/treatments as it will by far have the most impact on the sound. Things like secondary reflections off hard surfaces, speakers not equidistant from side/back walls, improper toe in etc will have a great effect on imaging and soundstaging that no super amp will be able to compensate for. So get your room optimized with your current setup and later on any separate amp from the list above will only makes things better from there on.

My preference after I have optimized my room acoustics would be for a two channel B&K (200W/ch) (you could ofcourse choose based on your listening preference) for the two fronts as its sound is the most musical to my ears and since you are 75% into music. I would get any other 125W/ch amp from the list above for the remaining channels. This should give you the greatest bang for the buck without sacrificing any performance.

 

[james e m]

Thanks again for everybody's input.

As for the reason as to why I need 200+ watts for all channels? I don't know, I guess I just like to know it's there if called upon. It also gives me some flexibility if I wanted to upgrade my speakers in the very distant future.

Right now I am leaning towards the Sherbourn for a couple of reasons.

1. The musicality of the amp. In every review I have read of the 5 channel version, it describes the amp as being very musical, which is very important.

2. Sheer power. I was told that this amp is rated conservatively. So it sounds like I would be getting a essentially 225 wpc x 7 amp for a great price. I contacted the owner of Sherbourn and he assured me that there must have been a testing error in the Sound & Vision review, which at least made me feel better.

3. I like that I can buy a couple Sherbourn mono blocks in the distant future and have them power the rear channels so I can bridge the unused channels to give much more power to my Studio 100s.

On the other hand the B&K 7270 is a little sexier option.

1. The amp is described as having a warm sound, which I like.

2. I have a B&K dealer close to me if I have a problem.

3. The B&K amp is a THX Ultra amp. I know this means nothing, but it is one more thing I can impress my friend with. Plus the Sherborun amp is ugly, petty I know.

Am I making any glaring mistakes?
James

 

[Kevin T]

being an aragon fan myself, if i were in your shoes, i'd be looking around for a used aragon 8008bb for the fronts (~$1200-$1300) and a used acurus 200five (~$800-$900). both amps are made by mondial so they should have seamless tonal balance throughout. i've owned both these amps in the past and can attest to their excellent sonic signature. the only issue you might encounter is that aragon and acurus aren't really considered warm....they're what i think of as neutral and very revealing. outside of mondial's offerings, i think your best bet would be the anthem amps. good luck and happy hunting!

kevin t