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Can revealing speakers be bad? (1 Viewer)

Michael R Price

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Jul 22, 2001
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But Lance, 99% of all amplifiers, especially modern solid state, have a perfectly flat frequency response within a fraction of a decibel across the audio band. Some amps do have output impedance that changes the frequency response, but the difference is not so much (unless it's some extreme no-feedback tube amp with 4 ohms Z), it's under 1db with most speakers. I think the differences in amplifier tone are related to the kind of distortion they produce.

I agree mostly with the rest of your post. I think the reason some people don't like digital systems is that many of them, including mine (and like some cheap solid state amplifiers), generate a lot of "bright" distortion because the signal is often routed though complicated IC's and circuits with noisy power supplies. A better amplifier, for example, has made my system sound much cleaner and more pleasing without compromising the realistic, exciting aspect of the sound.

I agree that many people just automatically think "warmer is better." This is not the case, but I think that the negative connotation of the word "bright" comes from understandably negative impressions of some lower quality equipment... and shouldn't be applied to good quality equipment with a more forward sound.
 

Chu Gai

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Jun 29, 2001
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If the amp or receiver is operating within its limits and when distortion is below the level of audibility what then Michael? Take a look at a relatively 'cheap' but ballsy QSC, Crown, Carvin, etc. Those are typically stable into 2 ohms. Now I'll grant you that people often don't pay attention to the impedance curves of their speakers and wind up choosing an amp or receiver that can't deliver the goods at the volumes they're likely to be listening to. But to my mind, that's not that an amp has a sound rather its that the whole matter hasn't been thought through properly. It's one thing for a manufacturer to outright specify performance into say 4 or 2 ohms and it's quite another to list some dyanamic headroom into 4 or 2 ohms.

You see a lot of people who've bought whatever speakers they happen to own call their choices 'revealing'. It's a word that IMHO needs to be taken with a more than a grain of salt as often, it can be nothing more than patting oneself on the back.
 

Michael R Price

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You're right about how we should be taking these terms with a grain of salt, but I would contend that getting all forms of distortion to below audibility is a little more difficult than some manufacturers would like us to realize. (But, that's another argument. Once I fix up my non-wimpy amplifiers and get a good comparison going, I'll post about that.)

Chu, what do you think the terms "warm" and "bright" mean when applied to amplifiers?
 

LanceJ

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Oct 26, 2002
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What is revealing to me?

My speaker reference point is the Klipsch La Scala. These things are absolutely merciless as far as detail & nuances go (in fact, they are pushing my own limits). And I would only operate these in a very large & carpeted room.

I can't imagine anyone hearing these categorizing these speakers as anything BUT revealing--they sure ain't "warm"-anything!

LJ
 

LanceJ

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Also:

Guys, don't take this the wrong way but I think y'all might be digging too deep into the amp sound thing. While it's true that how a particular amp design reacts with a specific speaker does effect the resulting sound AND that a manufacturer could build an amp if they wanted that remains totally stable into any speaker available, resulting in a predictable and accurate sound, the fact remains that there are many amp manufacturers that DON'T make their amps this way, and they really do sound different operating different speakers.

An amp from a quality manufacturer includes a large power supply (for the output transistors) that has little problem driving difficult speaker loads (i.e.,
 

Terry St

Second Unit
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Jun 21, 2002
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393
Their seems to be a trend this past decade to consciously build dull (warm, velevety, etc) sounding components. And I think many high-end companies are the worst offenders in this regard. For some reason, many audiophiles are offended by any sound that has a sharp characteristic to it, even if it sounds that way in real life.
The better a neutral speaker is the more it sounds like the original source. Unfortunately, a lot of people shopping for speakers want to be "WOW"'d, and neutral speakers tend not to do this as well as a more distinctively voiced speakers do. To this end, many manufacturers will introduce all sorts of hills, valleys, and other topological features into their speakers' frequency response curves. Some will round off higher frequencies while others will emphasize them. As a result, you can get an overly "bright" speaker just as easily as an overly "warm" one. Naturally, most people define "bright" and "warm" in reference to their own speakers because that is what they are used to and, of course, that is the very definition of "neutral". How dare anyone suggest otherwise! Regardless of reality, any given speaker can be called both bright and warm by different people based upon their own frames of reference. Isn't that wonderful!?!

To make things even more difficult, room acoustics have a large impact on how a speaker sounds. You really need to get a speaker into your home before you can tell what it will sound like. Amps also have an effect on the sound, but not to the same degree granted that you have sufficient power to avoid clipping on transients. While some mega-buck amps are voiced in a similar manner to speakers, most reasonably priced SS amps out there are pretty neutral. While I can't guarantee you won't hear any differences in a blind test between similar Bryston and Rotel amps, very likely any differences that do exist will be subtle. Of course, the Bryston is built like military hardware and comes with a 20-year transferable warranty that makes resale virtually guaranteed... If you really want a coloured amp there are people who sell after-market mods. Of course, if anyone has ever had a Bryston modded, please don't tell me or I'll wind up doing an impersonation of Marvin the clinically depressed robot! ("Here I am, brain the size of a planet...")

Bottom line, get an in-home demo so you can judge for yourself. Ideally, try to get a few different speakers in your home at the same time and spend some time with each of them so that the initial "WOW" impact of any deliberate voicings are diminished. Read up on demo'ing speakers so you know all the important tricks like matching volumes, etc. At first, listen only to good recordings and pick your favorite. Then, listen to bad recordings on each. If you find that your favorite speakers don't do as well as some of the others with poor sources, then you may have some tough choices to make depending on how much you value your existing material. I know this is a lot more difficult than listening to speakers in stores and going with the consensus on message boards like this one, but ultimately, evaluating several different speakers yourself will give you far more peace of mind.

P.S. When it comes time to purchase an amp, I strongly suggest you check out the used amp market on auction sites like audiogon. You may find that a used bryston costs about the same as a new rotel, and comes with a much longer warranty too. Plus, should you choose to sell it in 2 or 3 years the price will very likely be almost the same as what you paid.
 

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