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Can Amazon stand above the fray and make sense of the Android / tablet mess? (1 Viewer)

Sam Posten

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Just as I expected, Bezos personally plans for me to buy both. Bastard.
http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/09/amazon/
Still the introduction of Fire — which will ship November 15 — introduces a contradiction. For years, Bezos has been touting the virtues of e-ink for reading. Now he is introducing the first in what will probably be many back-lit, heavier Amazon devices. Which gadget will people choose?
Bezos has an answer. “They’re going to buy both,” he says.
 

Hanson

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The Kindle Fire does lack features compared to similar Android Tablets, some of which I find essential. But for the price and for the target audience, it's packed with features. I don't think saying it lacks features is negative at all. It's true. I think Sam gets me on this point.

I have zero problems with Flash on my phone, but then again I have the Epic 4G Touch, which sports dual core + 1GB RAM. I think it's safe to say that Flash on a phone like this (or the Evo 3D or Photon) is a very good experience. On a sub 1GHz Android phone with 512MB RAM? Not as good. But you aren't forced to have Flash loading when browsing (which is no different from the iOS browser), so claiming that Android phones are



is baseless FUD. Anyone who actually used an Android phone would know this. But Cupertino likes their followers to parrot this kind of misinformation.

And those poor reviews of Flash on Android are circa 2010. Read the reviews on the new Android phones -- they all gives thumbs up for Flash.

And finally, having both Kindle models is actually more convenient than you'd think. The trick is that each Kindle device (phone, Fire, PC) will sync where you are in the book so that once you pick up another device, you can jump to the last page read. I was halfway through Storm of Swords before I discovered this functionality -- before that, I would memorize the last location and jump to it on the next device. After that, I could seamlessly transition between devices.
 

Sam Posten

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Yeah, it's done that on the iPad app since the start =)
BTW Privacy nuts can opt out of the Man In The Middle split browser part:
http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2011/09/28/amazon-kindle-fires-silk-browser-sounds-privacy-alarm-bells/
I just googled "Flash Android 2011" and didn't find a lot of love..
http://www.infoworld.com/d/mobile-technology/flash-android-look-dont-touch-838
Then this from a Xoom review:
First of all, I didn't have the experience of stuttering Flash playback that some sites have reported: it played smoothly for me.
But ayayayay, watch the battery life. Every three minutes's play saw a 1% drop in the battery.
 

Hanson

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Originally Posted by ManW_TheUncool /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/90#post_3855474

Given the storage limitation, I wonder how much that will impact the niche of power users who would want to root the device and install custom ROMs -- and I wonder if Amazon had factored that into the equation (to discourage such practice) or whether that will just become a happy coincidence for them.
It also occurred to me that the Fire isn't nearly as attractive as a custom ROM device. Sure it's only $199, but what's the point in porting Honeycomb to it? You'll likely end up with an Android tablet that performs worse than with the Amazon skin. The Nook Color's huge disadvantage is that the app market is severely limited. If you wanted to run popular Market apps, you would need to install a ported OS. With the Fire, the Amazon App Market disincentivizes the urge to port Android. The Amazon App Market is the most important component the Fire leverages, something that was foreseen when Amazon started it. I go there every day to download free paid apps, so I'm comfortable telling people they won't miss the Google Market.


Originally Posted by ManW_TheUncool /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/90#post_3855474

RE: the lack of FF camera for video chat, I'm still not sure how useful that really is at this point. Video chat just doesn't seem commonplace enough yet for that to be a big deal (at least for the average person). OTOH, if the Kindle Fire were to include that feature and sell like hotcakes x 10, that might give video chat a really big kick toward mainstream adoption. But is cross-platform compatibility a big part of the problem w/ video chat now? Maybe there's just not enough Facetime-enabled iOS devices and video-chat-enabled non-iOS smartphones and netbooks out in the wild just yet...

Between Tango, Fring, and Qik, cross platform video chat between iOS and Android is completely possible (I use Fring to chat with my sister's iPad all the time). The real mitigating factor with video chat is that you have to buy and install a webcam and software and you're tethered to your PC. It's bit easier with laptops that have webcams built in (although you still have to lean towards them), but doing it on a tablet really gives you the freedom to walk around and capture whatever is around you.
 

Ted Todorov

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Hanson said:
Because the phone runs Flash video, you ought to be able to enjoy TV shows at Hulu.com. But maybe because it’s phone Flash, it’s so jerky that it’s unwatchable, even on a fast Wi-Fi connection.
Give it up, please. Calling down "up" doesn't make it so. Android is fantastic in many ways, competition from it has vastly improved consumer choice and forced the raising of overall quality at low prices. However attempting to support Flash as differentiation from iOS has been a time and resources waisting blind alley -- if all that time and effort had been devoted to building better HTML 5 authoring tools mobile technology as whole, not to mention the World Wide Web would be in a far better place now.
 

Hanson

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The Atrix is not that new. It's very clear that you aren't familiar with the Android phone landscape, so if anyone should "give it up", it's you. You keep criticizing tech that you have zero familiarity with, which is why it just sounds like talking points to me.




Flash video played without problem from CNET's site, and high-quality YouTube videos loaded within seconds and played back continuously.
Read more: http://reviews.cnet.com/smartphones/samsung-epic-4g-touch/4505-6452_7-35003062-2.html#ixzz1ZMzFtXxE





The Photon 4G can also play Flash video within the phone's WebKit browser. Sometimes the browser will display a warning that the video is not optimized for mobile, but the phone will still play the video regardless. We didn't experience much buffering time at all, and video quality was quite good.
Read more: http://reviews.cnet.com/smartphones/motorola-photon-4g-sprint/4505-6452_7-34830808-2.html#ixzz1ZMzyENBe

As has been demonstrated elsewhere, Flash itself isn't the problem -- of you extract the Flash video from the page, it runs fine and runs smoothly. The real problem is that the coding on most of these websites bogs down the phone browsers, and that lead to stuttering, freezing, and jerkiness. The only way to fix this is either sheer horsepower or what the Silk browser will do, which is to remove the bad code before sending the Flash video.

The other thing is, since it's not really the video format that's the problem, webpages that display HTML5 video have the same slowdown issues because they're not coded any better. So there's no inherent difference between the two technologies, it's simply a matter of Jobs engaged in a pissing match.
 

Ted Todorov

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Originally Posted by Hanson /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/90#post_3855537
The Atrix is not that new. It's very clear that you aren't familiar with the Android phone landscape, so if anyone should "give it up", it's you. You keep criticizing tech that you have zero familiarity with, which is why it just sounds like talking points to me.


As has been demonstrated elsewhere, Flash itself isn't the problem -- of you extract the Flash video from the page, it runs fine and runs smoothly. The real problem is that the coding on most of these websites bogs down the phone browsers, and that lead to stuttering, freezing, and jerkiness. The only way to fix this is either sheer horsepower or what the Silk browser will do, which is to remove the bad code before sending the Flash video.
The excuses just keep coming. "The Atrix is not that new". You are aware that the 2007 iPhone with its single core CPU running at 412MHz can play web video without a stutter, right? And what you are saying below, totally proves my point: had the big brains at Google joined Apple in denying Flash and kept it out of desktop Chrome as well, and the coding of which you speak would be long gone.

As it is, what most websites do is detect iOS devices and turn on HTTP live streaming video for them, while they serve Flash for everyone else -- so Android devices get to drain their batteries fast at best or a unwatchable stuttering mess at worst.

Stop. Beating. The. Dead. Horse. Even Adobe is starting to see the light and the latest version of their Flash Media Server will automatically use HTTP live streaming when it detects an iOS device -- for everyone else -- see above.
 

DaveF

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weak sauce said:
/t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/90#post_3855503
I don't think saying it lacks features is negative at all. It's true.

So, no, I don't really get you on the point.
 

mattCR

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Adobe is late to the game in realizing what Microsoft already did: the reason why Silverlight and Flash matter is for their content protection methods in per-purchase modes and monitoring. There are other ways around it, but for those things it does work. But guess what? MS figured out how to make silverlight servers switch and negotiate a license once and then stream the content.. Adobe is figuring that out too.. just a lot later.
 

Hanson

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Originally Posted by DaveF /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/90#post_3855551



So, no, I don't really get you on the point.
Um... okay. Let's look at it like this:

It is de riguer for a tablet on the market today to have at least 16gb storage or expandable storage. Cameras and mics are also expected. And 512MB RAM? That's subpar. Stacked up against a Galaxy Tab 8.9, the Fire doesn't stack up spec wise. Then again, tablets go for $400-$600. But...

The Fire is only $199. And the shortage of RAM might not matter because of the way the Silk browser works. For $199, it trumps the $299 Nook Color. For a $199 device, it's an amazing piece of kit. The last MIC stab at a $199 tablet was laughably inept (resistive touch screen running at 800 X 480 for starters). The Fire is impressive and a steal for the price. But because it's at that price.

I still don't know why you don't understand my point. Is there something inherent about the phrase "weak sauce" that you can't get past?
 

Ken_McAlinden

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IIRC, I read in Popular Science about a two-layer screen that could do e-ink *and* full color modes, but I think it has that classic hybrid dilemma of being as or more expensive as two separate screens to produce, so you would effectively be paying either way.
 

ManW_TheUncool

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ManW_TheUncool said:
/t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/90#post_3855567

The Fire is only $199. And the shortage of RAM might not matter because of the way the Silk browser works. For $199, it trumps the $299 Nook Color. For a $199 device, it's an amazing piece of kit. The last MIC stab at a $199 tablet was laughably inept (resistive touch screen running at 800 X 480 for starters). The Fire is impressive and a steal for the price. But because it's at that price.
Don't mean to nitpick, but the NC is $249, not $299, and B&N has started offering some sort of discount/promo offers in the past month. But yeah, I really think Amazon's biggest target for the Fire is the NC, not so much the other tablets (although *all* tablets will feel the impact to some extent/varying degrees), and B&N will need to do something about that real soon -- most likely before the holiday shopping season begins. It would not surprise me if B&N does indeed have something in the works toward that end, but I'm *not* confident at all that they'll be able to provide a convincing "response" to Amazon's Fire w/ something in the near future, which is too bad me thinks.

_Man_
 

Hanson

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Originally Posted by Ken_McAlinden /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/90#post_3855568
Quote:
IIRC, I read in Popular Science about a two-layer screen that could do e-ink *and* full color modes, but I think it has that classic hybrid dilemma of being as or more expensive as two separate screens to produce, so you would effectively be paying either way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Qi

Man, does the Nook Color have an SD slot? I thought the specs said it took 32gb SD cards. And while rooting is a much simpler process than a custom ROM, the Nook Color can't access Market apps out of the box. Neither can the Fire (presumably), but the Amazon App Store is enough to satisfy the target user in ways the B&N app store cannot.
 

mattCR

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The Amazon App store for most users will be preferred, because it guarantees it will work. I can't tell you how often I hear about people trying an app on their Acer Iconia or Xoom or whatever that doesn't work correctly.. even though it's for the right OS.. the Amazon App store will pretty well be tailored to their target.
 

ManW_TheUncool

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Hanson said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Qi

Man, does the Nook Color have an SD slot? I thought the specs said it took 32gb SD cards. And while rooting is a much simpler process than a custom ROM, the Nook Color can't access Market apps out of the box. Neither can the Fire (presumably), but the Amazon App Store is enough to satisfy the target user in ways the B&N app store cannot.
Yeah, the NC has a microSD slot for that -- seems most power users keep the stock OS on a small-ish microSD card while running a custom ROM on internal storage.

My point was simply that you probably don't need to install custom ROM on the NC if you just want to run most of the Froyo-compatible apps out there. A simple rooting should be enough in most such cases. That's the understanding I got from the bit of homework I did at AndroidTablets.net.

Of course, that won't help the mainstream average person who might be interested in one of these devices -- but then again, most such users probably wouldn't be all *that* interested in most any other Android tablets either, if a simple rooting is too much/complicated to do. Still, w/ Amazon putting the heat on fast and furiously, I gotta think B&N will (or rather, should) try to do something more on that front to help keep the NC afloat. The fact they went from no apps at all to opening things up a bit (even though the apps selection is severely limited) about 1/2 year after the NC's release (and well ahead of the Amazon rumors) indicates to me they'd make some sort of effort in that regard. It may be though that they'll (continue to) choose to shoot for quality over quantity, so they may never come close to catching/keeping up w/ the competition in terms of sheer numbers.

Personally, as I've said before, I think the sheer numbers that get thrown about for both iOS and Android sides are really pretty worthless to the average mainstream user. They're really just bulletpoints for the most part, not much more. Sure, overwhelming quantity suggest one can find somethings useful/to like there even if the percentage of quality/useful apps may just be a very tiny fraction, but at the end of the day, I really don't think that's what wins over the average mainstream user. That's not to say that B&N can just ignore their lack of quantity issue nor to suggest they have enough actual quality to compete, but just pointing out that B&N may not need to follow the trend and shoot for quantity over quality is all. In fact, given how things are going, I'd think B&N should probably buck that trend and go the other way instead and shoot for a well managed, good selection of quality apps instead since there's probably no way they can play catch-up and keep-up at this point...

_Man_
 

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Originally Posted by ManW_TheUncool /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/90#post_3855598
My point was simply that you probably don't need to install custom ROM on the NC if you just want to run most of the Froyo-compatible apps out there. A simple rooting should be enough in most such cases. That's the understanding I got from the bit of homework I did at AndroidTablets.net.
I agree with you on that point, but I also agree with Sam that rooting isn't going to be a popular solution.

The reason these non-Google approved tablet have never really had traction in the market is because while Android itself is free under GPL, programs like Maps and Market and Gmail were used by Google to keep manufacturers in line. They also collected royalties for Market privileges, and that was the biggest stick in the Google arsenal. Without Market, you can only offer so many apps.

This is where Amazon's App Store is the crucial differentiator. They have been developing their App Store as a viable alternative to the Market, and they're now the only ones who can offer an Android device unsanctioned by Google. No one else has the means to get a non-Google Android device that has the breadth of popular apps that are otherwise only found in the Market. They have all the big games, all the big productivity apps, and all the big media apps. So it's not so much that Fire owners will prefer the Amazon App Store as much as it is that it will be their only App Store.

One note about the GPL -- under the conditions set forth, DRM is not allowed. So as I understand it, Amazon can't legally have a DRM ecosystem running on the Android platform. This may be why everything is set to stream and there are no movie downloads. Amazon mp3 downloads are and have always been DRM free.
 

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Sam Posten said:
Are you trolling? =p
I guess that part of the discussion got a bit lost/muddied and/or sidetracked/disconnected, but the original context for that statement was a follow-up about people who may want to do more than what *both* the Kindle Fire *and* the NC can do out-of-the-box and how the memory/storage config between them might impact that desire/intention. In fact, I even went thru the trouble of reiterating (more or less) that this part of the discussion would not apply to the average mainstream user.

For those people who would actually want to root anything and maybe install a custom ROM, the Kindle Fire's restriction on local storage will likely be a very notable negative. OTOH, yeah, maybe the Kindle Fire will be good enough that only a small minority of so called "power users" would still have the urge to root it whereas that's obviously not the case for the current version of the NC. Either way, I'm guessing the limitation of local storage will probably further disincentivize(?) them from going that route, which was where this part of discussion began (for me anyway)...

_Man_
 

ManW_TheUncool

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Hanson said:
I agree with you on that point, but I also agree with Sam that rooting isn't going to be a popular solution.
I never suggested that would be a popular (mainstream) solution at all. As my response to Sam above indicates, I think the part of the discussion I was following up on just got a bit lost/muddied and/or disconnected by the time I made that statement about "simple rooting".

OTOH, I still believe that there's probably a lot of folks interested in these devices who won't care nearly as much about the differences between Amazon's app store and B&N's app store to make that the primary difference maker in their choice of device, especially if B&N will make a reasonable effort to improve their selection (w/ quality, not necessarily sheer quantity) in the near future. I think people are more likely to want the Kindle Fire for all the other stuff like included video streaming via Amazon Prime and the likely superior overall experience that Amazon offers (aside from apps, most of which I still believe to be not too much more than junk).

Honestly, I think the kind of differences we're talking about between these app stores will likely be the last thing that matters to the majority of mainstream folks jumping on any of these devices. Most folks of such devices care far more about content (and content delivery) than apps per se (such as 99.9% of them tend to be outside of a handful of popular games that would likely show up even on the NC sooner or later anyway), IMHO.

For instance, when my previously disinterested manager at work asked me about the Kindle Fire, apps was the last thing on his mind. Even when I told him about the free apps that Amazon had been offering, he still didn't show much interest in that aspect of it and cared more about the prospect of getting an Amazon Prime subscription and dumping NetFlix streaming as a result. And I'm not even talking about a potential customer who's not tech savvy enough to do something like installing the Android SDK and using its emulator to register his Amazon account and start collecting free apps before getting an Android device, but apps just don't interest him much, and I suspect most mainstream customers, whether they're tech savvy or not, will be a lot like him.

Heck, even though I've been collecting free apps (on and off) from Amazon for a few months now, I still haven't had a great urge to actually root my wife's NC and try them out so far, LOL. And she (and the kids) have been happy enough w/ what the NC can do w/ the limited apps available from B&N as is -- for her, she's really only been annoyed w/ the iffy WiFi connection she's been getting w/ it around the house, which is not necessarily a fault w/ the NC itself. But my wife is precisely the kind of target audience for this kind of device me thinks...

_Man_
 

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Hanson said:
One note about the GPL -- under the conditions set forth, DRM is not allowed.  So as I understand it, Amazon can't legally have a DRM ecosystem running on the Android platform.  This may be why everything is set to stream and there are no movie downloads.  Amazon mp3 downloads are and have always been DRM free.   
 
 
 
WHAT....???!!!
Just yesterday I was trying to talk a semi-invalid friend of mine into getting one. A non-reader movie buff like no other I've ever known, he freaks whenever there's a power outage and is deprived of his beloved hobby. He no longer has the internet but I told him that I or one of his kids could possibly download movies for him to fall back on during a black-out. Even the limited battery life would have been enough to carry him through most circumstances. It also puts paid to any ideas I had of watching movies 'in the wild.'
Say it ain't so...........:confused:
(I presume downloads are possible on iPad via iTunes? A major drag since the things that appeal to me most about the Fire are not only the price, but the size and portability. Like Man's boss, I've zero interest in Apps).
 

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