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CA70ES and Denon 3801, analog or digital? (1 Viewer)

Chriss M

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Hi everyone

i currently have my CA70ES CD player hooked up with analog interconnects to my Denon 3801. This is mainly because the cd player only has an optical out and all my optical inputs are already filled ( computer, dvd player, playstation2). I was also thinking that the DAC on the dedicated cd player might be a bit better than the one in the receiver. I realize the best way is to switch it around and see what sounds best, but im just curious how people with similar setups have it configured. Would it be worth rearranging things to free up another digital input and using that for the cd player?
 

Nicholas A. Gallegos

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Probably not. I'm willing to bet the DAC in that player is better than the one in your receiver. I don't own that same setup, but at least that's the case for me.
 

KeithH

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Chriss, as you said, the best way to determine which connection type is better is to try both of them. I have some familiarity with the 'CA70ES, and while it is an excellent value, it does not have as good a DAC as the 'CA80ES, which I once owned and which was a very good changer for the money. For that reason alone, I would try the 'CA70ES with an optical digital cable. I don't own the Denon '3801, but I would expect it to have a capable DAC, so I feel trying out the digital connection is worthwhile.

By the way, since you are out of optical digital inputs on the '3801, can you switch another component (e.g., DVD player) to a coaxial digital cable to accommodate the 'CA70ES?
 

Chriss M

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By the way, since you are out of optical digital inputs on the '3801, can you switch another component (e.g., DVD player) to a coaxial digital cable to accommodate the 'CA70ES?
Unfortunately all my devices are optical only. I have a Pannasonic RP51, a Playstation 2, and my computer (for mp3) and none of them have coaxial.
 

Chriss M

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Yeah, when i went to buy the cd player, i was originally going to get the Harmon Kardon model in the same price range, which has coax out. The dealer was out of stock on it though, and offered me the sony at a good price, so i took that instead.

I'm really just curious how everyone else has it configured, but i think i am stuck with analog regardless because my other devices really need to be on digital. The DVD player for obvious reasons, and with DD and DTS appearing in games now the PS2 also. I used to run the computer analog, and it sounded horrible, probably because of the combination of the low quality DAC and the crappy RCA-to-stereo mini plug converter that is required.

Well anyway, thanks for the feedback guys.
 

KeithH

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No problem, Chriss. While I know that the Denon '3801 and '3802 receivers are very good, I have always thought that they are lacking when it comes to available digital inputs. Anyway, hope the 'CA70ES works out for you.
 

Mike Burke

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Chris,

I have the same CD player and I use the AVR3200 and I'll tell ya the Denon's DAC's SUCK for music! I use a M/C 550i analog cable and I couldn't be happier!! I think maybe if we tried it with the 4802/5800 it might be a different story! Good Luck

Mike
 

Gil D

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the Denon's DAC's SUCK for music!
The 3801 is improved over the 3200. Mike I would seriously consider upgrading to the the 3802. I used to run with the 3200 and it served me well, especially the 6 channel input. Dialog Norm on DD used to drive me batty at times though.

The 70es is a good changer, it should give the Denon a run for it's money. The bad thing about the 3801 is that it's short on digial inputs as you know. The good thing about the 3801 is that it does analog fairly well.

I would also consider the Sony CE775 sacd/cd changer if the price was comparable.
 

Andrew Beck

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one quick thought though. if you don't have the analog out from the cd player going to the denon's analog passthrough (does it have this?) you are using the denon's ADC and DAC regardless. So it makes more sense to use the digital output, once less conversion to be made.
 

Chriss M

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I was of the understanding that the denon does no extra signal conversions. An analog signal remains analog, even in modes other than "direct". I think i read that somewhere here on this forum. Does anybody know if this is correct ?
 

Andrew Beck

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i wouldn't think that would be true. does it do bass management on analog sources? DPL? if so then it's going through an ADC->DAC conversion.
 

Chriss M

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i believe the post on the forums i was referreing to was this one - http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...threadid=32640
this is the specific post
Lewis, would you believe that both you and (former) Denon Dave are right?
You are 100% correct that the Direct mode is not highpassed. But if you read the quote closely, you'll note that Denon Dave says just analog bypass (not specifically Direct.)
This is because ALL Denons, when placed into "2 channel" analog mode, do not run the mains signals through any digital conversion. It remains analog from input to output. (I verified this a couple of years ago by having an aquaintance of mine trace the 2 channel circuit path of his 5700.) So, when in 2 channel analog mode (because of the parallel signal path) a full set of both highpass and lowpass filters are available (as are the analog tone controls.) (Don't forget though that the sub's lowpass is apparently a digital one.)
From what I can glean from all of this is that the main difference between plain analog bypass and Direct is that the highpass crossover and tone controls are bypassed in Direct mode (for a more pure signal path.)
 

Jeff D.

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it does not have as good a DAC as the 'CA80ES
I could be wrong, so if anyone has any concrete information, please pass it on. But the DACs in these two machines are identical. The CA80ES was simply a slightly improved model with aluminum front panel and separate fixed/variable outputs etc. The literature on the Sony website (both with Full Feed Forward DACs) and my own auditioning and even the price points seem to bare this out.
So, having said that, the DACs used by the Sony are quite excellent and I would venture to guess using the CD player's DACs will yield better sound than the receiver. I've never liked the sound of Denon components in general, but I definitely don't like the digital stage in their receivers.
/Jeff
 

KeithH

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Jeff, the 'CA70ES has what Sony calls an Advanced Pulse DAC, while the 'CA80ES has the more familiar ES Current Pulse DAC. I've heard both changers with the analog outputs, and the 'CA80ES is better.

By the way, I'm not sure what you meant about price points here. The 'CA80ES was the more expensive changer. When in production, it retailed for $500, while the 'CA70ES retails for $300. When the 'CA80ES was discontinued some months ago, dealers started selling for as little as $350, but I'm not sure if one can still find it new.
 

JerryW

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Yep, Keith is correct. The CA70ES is a capable changer (I listened to one on my system for a week), but it's not as good as the CA80ES. The differences are subtle, but they are evident, especially at high frequencies or very complex pieces.

That said, the CA70ES is a quality changer and the DACs in it are probably as good as the ones in the 3801... but probably have different capabilities. I'd bet the Sony's are more "revealing" and maybe a little bright to some people's ears, while the Denon's may be a bit on the "warm" side. I'd listen to both and see which you prefer. A lot of it will depend on your speakers and tastes.

g'luck
 

Jeff D.

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Keith;
A quick check to both the Sony Electronics website and inside my own CA70ES verifies there is indeed a Current Pulse D/A in the CA70ES.
The main differences between the two:
the 80ES has seperate power transformers for analog/digital circuits
the 80ES has an aluminum as opposed to ABS front panel on the CA70ES
the 80ES incorporates custom file
But the D/A and filter stages are the same on both (Current Pulse D/A and Full Feed Forward filter).
Any differences in sound (when I auditioned, the 80ES had a slight advantage, but they were clearly using the same D/A circuitry) would be attributable to the seperate power supplies (I assume anyway).
Sony CDP-CA70ES
/Jeff
 

KeithH

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Jeff, Sony has changed the description it offers for the 'CA70ES. They used to say the 'CA70ES has an Advanced Pulse DAC, not a Current Pulse DAC, and there was also no mention of the 'CA70ES having an ABS front panel. Note that Sony never claimed the 'CA70ES had an aluminum front panel. They just never said anything about the front panel. In any event, Sony's web site is not always correct, so one should take certain things with a grain of salt. Crutchfield still says the 'CA70ES has an Advanced Pulse DAC. In any event, the 'CA80ES is definitely the better changer and is worth tracking down in lieu of purchasing the 'CA70ES if at all possible.
 

Mike Burke

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GilD says:
The 3801 is improved over the 3200. Mike I would seriously consider upgrading to the the 3802. I used to run with the 3200 and it served me well, especially the 6 channel input. Dialog Norm on DD used to drive me batty at times though.
Gil,
I am looking at the 4802 or maybe the 5800. I bought my AVR3200 in Framingham, MA and can trade it in at full value until March of this year...so a 4802 should be around 1200.00 + my AVR3200...we'll see what the tax return looks like! :). Eventually I want to go with seperates (Tag MacLaren and Proceed w/Revel speakers!..hee hee)
Mike
 

Jeff D.

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Jeff
In any event, the 'CA80ES is definitely the better changer and is worth tracking down in lieu of purchasing the 'CA70ES if at all possible.
Better by a slight margin. The CA80ES does not blow away the 70ES, they have very, very similar sonic characteristics. Is it worth tracking down "if at all possible"? No. The sonic benefits are simply not that great. The slight sonic advantage is presumably due to a slightly cleaner signal path owing to seperate analog/digital power supplies. But as they both use the same D/A and filter stage, they run off the same heartbeat and thus have similar sonic characteristics.

/Jeff
 

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