Buying a new car (1 Viewer)

[DaveF]

On the car-shopping front, The Wirecutter has an interesting recommendation for mid-size sedan: the Subaru Legacy.

http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-midsize-sedan/


I saw last year and again this year that CR likes the Subaru sedan. Subaru was popular in Rochester, with its AWD. But I've never driven one or considered it for my car shopping. It was bottom of my list, "yeah yeah I'll test drive it if I remember before buying a new Honda". But I think now it's moving into the "must check out" before I finish winnowing my selections.

 

[DaveF]

TL;DR

• Nissan Altima: In. V6 makes me smile. But infotainment not great.
• VW Passat: In. Interesting compromises. But Concerned about price.
• Honda Accord: In. This is what a car is supposed to feel like. But compared to other cars it's not an obvious winner anymore. Dual-screen infotainment remains WTF?
• Subaru Legacy: In. Excellent 'user interface' design. Spacious. But ride is floaty.

• Ford Fusion Titanium: Out. Sync 2 is unacceptable in 2016. And the driver seat was atrocious.
• Hyundai Sonata: Out. Good value, but doesn't excite me. My '90s prejudices against Hyundai color my perception.
• Toyota Camry: Out. Seat too short and headroom too cramped.

I test drove a number of cars this weekend: Hyundai Sonata, Nissan Altima, VW Passat, Subaru Legacy, and the Honda Accord.


The Altima V6 literally brought a smile to my face. It was very fun! The smile cracked when I interacted with the mediocre infotainment system. My wife is urging me to try the Maxima, which is outside my price range, because I thought it looked so awesome.


I had high hopes for the Sonata: It's got CarPlay, it's loaded with all the technology features, and the reviews are quite good. While the Altima has an element of "FUN!", the Sonata is just a car to go from place to place. Not bad, but devoid of any emotion. And despite a year of promoting CarPlay, and online video reviews, Hyundai has not added CarPlay to their cars. (In fact, it seems they've completely backpedaled. Their website is recently scrubbed of all reference to Apple, and the Technology page has a large, glowing description of their Android Auto implementation.) Hyundai is out.


So help me, I'm considering a VW. The Passat is not perfect, but it's an interesting set of compromises. The 4-cylinder engine is not impressive, but it's adequate. The handling is taut and engaging. The CarPlay implementation and infotainment screen is the best I've seen. The lane keeping and adaptive cruise work well and are reasonably easy to work. But while the infotainment screen is best of class, the gauge-cluster digital screen might be worst of class. It's some low-res, monochrome screen from 1995. Previously, VW has been overpriced for my tastes. I'm keeping them in consideration for the potential that they're now better priced, given their sales difficulties.


Subaru Legacy felt softer, floatier than I prefer. The V6 was competent if unimpressive. But the steering wheel controls are best of class, especially well designed and layed out. This is a car that is easy to drive. The infotainment is clearly recently re-designed and high quality. It was about as good as I've seen without CarPlay. The cockpit was roomier than the Accord, with a nice high ceiling, even with the moonroof. And the trunk had pistoned hinges! Not those stupid gooseneck hinges Honda uses (that smash luggage and shopping bags). If the Legacy had a tighter driving feel and CarPlay, I'd be done shopping. As is, it's worth considering, but I'm not yet sold.

 

[DavidMiller]

I bought a 2014 Honda Accord for my wife last year been rock solid no issues. She loves all the safety stuff (rear camera, lane departure warning, etc)


I love my BMW and highly recommend but are out of your price range most likely.


I always do the internet sales so I don't have to deal with sales people. For BMW I just went in and said I'll pay $1000 over invoice, they said fine which car do you want. Then they gave me a great deal on my trade in and got an extra $2000 off if I financed through BMW with the only requirement of making one payment which I did then paid it off. All maintenance is included for 4 years with BMW, so you can add that cost savings in.

 

[schan1269]

TL;DR

• Nissan Altima: In. V6 makes me smile. But infotainment not great.
• VW Passat: In. Interesting compromises. But Concerned about price.
• Honda Accord: In. This is what a car is supposed to feel like. But compared to other cars it's not an obvious winner anymore. Dual-screen infotainment remains WTF?
• Subaru Legacy: In. Excellent 'user interface' design. Spacious. But ride is floaty.

• Ford Fusion Titanium: Out. Sync 2 is unacceptable in 2016. And the driver seat was atrocious.
• Hyundai Sonata: Out. Good value, but doesn't excite me. My '90s prejudices against Hyundai color my perception.
• Toyota Camry: Out. Seat too short and headroom too cramped.

I test drove a number of cars this weekend: Hyundai Sonata, Nissan Altima, VW Passat, Subaru Legacy, and the Honda Accord.

The Altima V6 literally brought a smile to my face. It was very fun! The smile cracked when I interacted with the mediocre infotainment system. My wife is urging me to try the Maxima, which is outside my price range, because I thought it looked so awesome.

I had high hopes for the Sonata: It's got CarPlay, it's loaded with all the technology features, and the reviews are quite good. While the Altima has an element of "FUN!", the Sonata is just a car to go from place to place. Not bad, but devoid of any emotion. And despite a year of promoting CarPlay, and online video reviews, Hyundai has not added CarPlay to their cars. (In fact, it seems they've completely backpedaled. Their website is recently scrubbed of all reference to Apple, and the Technology page has a large, glowing description of their Android Auto implementation.) Hyundai is out.

So help me, I'm considering a VW. The Passat is not perfect, but it's an interesting set of compromises. The 4-cylinder engine is not impressive, but it's adequate. The handling is taut and engaging. The CarPlay implementation and infotainment screen is the best I've seen. The lane keeping and adaptive cruise work well and are reasonably easy to work. But while the infotainment screen is best of class, the gauge-cluster digital screen might be worst of class. It's some low-res, monochrome screen from 1995. Previously, VW has been overpriced for my tastes. I'm keeping them in consideration for the potential that they're now better priced, given their sales difficulties.

Subaru Legacy felt softer, floatier than I prefer. The V6 was competent if unimpressive. But the steering wheel controls are best of class, especially well designed and layed out. This is a car that is easy to drive. The infotainment is clearly recently re-designed and high quality. It was about as good as I've seen without CarPlay. The cockpit was roomier than the Accord, with a nice high ceiling, even with the moonroof. And the trunk had pistoned hinges! Not those stupid gooseneck hinges Honda uses (that smash luggage and shopping bags). If the Legacy had a tighter driving feel and CarPlay, I'd be done shopping. As is, it's worth considering, but I'm not yet sold.

The Legacy is easy to correct the "floatiness". Changing the car over to springs(from struts) is very simple. Lots of people selling Forester and Legacy GT OEM suspension bits for aftermarket Swift and KartBoy.

I don't think Subaru offers the GT Legacy anymore. But creating one costs about $1000...if you do the work yourself.

 

[DaveF]

The Legacy is easy to correct the "floatiness". Changing the car over to springs(from struts) is very simple. Lots of people selling Forester and Legacy GT OEM suspension bits for aftermarket Swift and KartBoy.

I don't think Subaru offers the GT Legacy anymore. But creating one costs about $1000...if you do the work yourself.

While that doesn't sound like the sort of thing I'd do, it's good info that confirms my perception of the ride.

 

[DaveF]

This is happening.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Oh boy...


Can't wait to hear the details!

 

[DaveF]

Pictures still to come


In the past three months, I've visited at least nine dealerships and test driven perhaps a dozen cars, some twice for about 15 test drives. I reviewed Consumer Reports year-end reader-survey reports and their new-year car reviews this year and last year; since my original plan was to buy last Winter. I've also read a smattering of articles on mid-size sedans in Car and Driver when I found them at doctors' offices.


Having driven a Honda Accord for the past 12 years, I expected to buy another Accord. I like how the 2016 Accord V6 drives; there's something about the Honda V6 that I didn't find elsewhere except the Nissan Altima. But the interior is a mess. The dual screen info-screen design is sub-par, even incoherent. Gone is the chunky volume knob, replaced with a fussy touchscreen slider. And the button placement for the (excellent) safety features are not well considered. And my wife, as an unbiased passenger-observer on all test drives thought the Honda was below average on interior quality. So I reluctantly ruled the Accord out.


The Ford Fusion was commendable, but the old Ford Sync is unacceptable in 2016. The Lincoln MKZ had a chance at winning my hear and upping my budget, but Ford Sync in a $40k car is nonsense; and the push-button shifter is a great aesthetics but terrible human-factors design. Nissan Altima was very fun to drive, but I couldn't get past CR's repeated reports of below-average reliability and concerns about resale value. (The Nissan Maxima was creeping into my view, but it suffers the same reader survey results.) Hyundai Sonata is a good value for a car that drives you places; but it lacked any emotional connection and it lacked Apple CarPlay (surprisingly contrary to the past two years promotions by Hyundai).


VW Passat. I like how it drives. I've not driven an BMW or Mercedes, but I assume this is a taste of what German-Performance driving is. It had CarPlay, something I very much wanted. And while MSRP for VW is normally too high, TrueCar said there were discounts to be had. But, there are no V6 models to be had. VW has only shipped 4-cylinder models to dealers here, so far. But it was a car of compromises: I liked the driving feel, but I felt like I was sliding around on the seat in turns. The control layout is sensible, but ugly and filled with too many small knobs. It has CarPlay, but as if to offset that cost, it has the worst digital- instrument gauge display I've seen on any car, including cars costing $10k less. I thought I might live with the Passat's compromises. But always in the back of my mind was the revelation of VW's multi-year deception of its own loyal customers, and I decided I didn't want to buy a Passat.


Subaru was not a brand I had even thought of when I started shopping. It was only due to Consumer Reports' praise of the Legacy that I considered it. My interest was further piqued by The Wirecutter's recommendation of the Legacy as the best mid-size sedan. But even then, it was almost the last car I drove. And I didn't like it at first. I had to go back a second time, try again with my mind open to different driving experience that I've had the past decade. Where the Accord was somewhat stiff, more road feel and a sharpness to the steering, the Legacy is softened and more cushioned. But I realized it wasn't mushy or imprecise. Just different. And probably more comfortable to me, now ten years older. The interior control design, the UI, is arguably the best of any midsize sedan. Straightforward and clear. It has the big-deal new safety features recently added to mid-size sedans (lacking the right-turn camera, a Honda unique feature; rear cross traffic warning, something Mazda had; and no beep-beep warning when backing up, something available in a few other brands). It has AWD. What it lacks is Apple Car Play. If it had that, it would probably be my ideal car. But it's got a so-so Subaru info screen and Nav system that's better than old Ford Sync, but not quite as good as the newest Honda Nav system or CarPlay.


And then I learned about the new Honda Civic. The 2016 Civic is a major refresh, with only the sedans released in December. The top-end Touring line has an amazing feature set for a Compact, sub-$30k car. Big-deal new safety features: Collision Mitigation, Lane-keeping, Adaptive Cruise, Backup Camera (but no Blind Spot Indicator). Single-screen info system with Car Play and Android Auto. Nicely design steering wheel controls for all the features. Great mileage (35 mpg mixed) with a zippy turbo-charged 4-cylinder that, with 600lbs less weight compared to its mid-size brethren, feels more like the V6 models. And it's $5000 cheaper than the mid-size sedans I'm considering. The 2016 Civic is compelling.


I almost bought the Civic. I was going to. Saturday night, I was telling myself I was going to order the Civic Touring on Sunday.


But.


The Civic is a compact car, and the road noise, though good for a compact, was apparent compared the mid-size sedans. I didn't have confidence this was a car I'd be comfortable driving 10 hours back to Indiana to visit family. It lacked Blind-spot warnings. To be honest, that's a feature I should have (ahem). The mileage improvement is inconsequential with gas at $2.50 a gallon. And I've been driving a mid-size sedan for over a decade. I'm open to change, but, I was wary of moving back to a compact for daily driving. And there were some minor issues: having a little more trunk space and little more comfortable seats.


Sunday morning, I went online TrueCar and priced the Subaru Legacy that I'd test-driven. It lacked only cargo net and was my second-preferred color. I was ok buying off the lot for the TrueCar price. I called the dealer and they still had that car on lot. So that afternoon, I went to the dealer. They said yep, ok, you've got the TrueCar quote so that's the price. And the rest of the day was spent doing the hurry-up-and-wait of buying a car on a busy Sunday. In the midst of this, Car Max is across the street from the Subaru dealer, and I did some walking back and forth getting my Honda appraised and sold to CarMax for $3000.


My family now tells me I need to start eating granola and possibly move to Colorado if I'm going to be a Subaru driver

 

[DaveF]

I keep running out of daylight to take some photos. Until then, if you care, I bought the 2016 Subaru Legacy 3.6R Limited, in Twilight Blue, with EyeSight and Remote Engine Starter.

http://www.subaru.com/vehicles/legacy/index.html

http://www.subaru.com/vehicles/legacy/models-specs.html

 

[Jim Mcc]

Nice. I didn't know car dealers were open on Sundays

 

[schan1269]

A 3.6r from an Accord???

You animal. Order a 2nd set of wheels with winter tires...

Subris is a real thing. (as in "I got all wheel drive"...)

And the CVT will be a learning curve the first 1000 miles. Get used to what the paddle shifters do before you pass people on 2 lane roads.

Keeping in mind I have a 15 Forester X Touring. I hated the CVT the first 1000. I still don't like it. But...I don't hate it.

Lastly:

Follow. The. Transmission. Maintenance. To. The. Letter.

If you don't...the CVT won't make it to 100,000 miles. And...that is all CVT in every car.

 

[schan1269]

Nice. I didn't know car dealers were open on Sundays

Only in states that excise tax can't be collected on Sunday.

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

Why are there "paddle shifters" on a car with a CVT that doesn't "shift"?

 

[schan1269]

Why are there "paddle shifters" on a car with a CVT that doesn't "shift"?

To give the illusion of "control". I use them all the time in the Forester. It is almost a must to force the CVT to hold a given gear ratio on 2 lane roads. The first time I tried to pass a semi in the car, on the interstate no less, I thought I was going to get rear ended. I mashed the throttle. Revs went up, it took another 3 seconds for the speed to actually increase. All I wanted to do was go from 65 to 75. Once "the rubber band caught up" I ended up going 85. Every car with CVT has this learning curve.

Ford is giving up on the DSG used in the Focus(Aisin can't get the programming sorted, so the trans always feels "lost").

Going forward, all Ford CVT will be programmed to "mimic shifting" since that is what "customers want".

 

[DaveF]

Nice. I didn't know car dealers were open on Sundays

They are in Virginia. They aren't in NY.

 

[DaveF]

A 3.6r from an Accord???

You animal. Order a 2nd set of wheels with winter tires...

Subris is a real thing. (as in "I got all wheel drive"...)

And the CVT will be a learning curve the first 1000 miles. Get used to what the paddle shifters do before you pass people on 2 lane roads.

Keeping in mind I have a 15 Forester X Touring. I hated the CVT the first 1000. I still don't like it. But...I don't hate it.

Lastly:

Follow. The. Transmission. Maintenance. To. The. Letter.

If you don't...the CVT won't make it to 100,000 miles. And...that is all CVT in every car.

In Rochester, I had snow tires. Here in NoVA, it's not worth the cost and trouble.


I'll be following the service guide. I've got an iPhone app I put in the service schedule, and it reminds when to get stuff done. The paddle shifters are a fun diversion. I've had them on some rentals (including that Miata) and have some idea for how they behave.

 

[DaveF]

Going forward, all Ford CVT will be programmed to "mimic shifting" since that is what "customers want".

The Legacy's CVT has a "mimic shifting" behavior.

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

Revs went up, it took another 3 seconds for the speed to actually increase.

This is why all three of my cars have a manual tranny.

 

[schan1269]

This is why all three of my cars have a manual tranny.

My fun cars are all stick.

If Subaru offered the same AWD setup in a stick(and still offered a "loaded stick shift car")...my Foresters(all three of them) would all be stick.

 

[DaveF]

Photos

View attachment 25470

View attachment 25471

View attachment 25472

View attachment 25473

View attachment 25475

View attachment 25476


View attachment 25477


View attachment 25478




A couple photogenic features:


My old Accord had gooseneck hinges that lower into the trunk space, crushing ill-placed cargo. The 2016 Accord continues this robust but annoying design. The Legacy has external piston hinges that don't enter the cargo space.

View attachment 25474


The sideview mirrors have courtesy lights that illuminate the side of the door in the dark when you unlock the car.

View attachment 25479