Building L/R Speakers (2 Viewers)

[Anthony_I]

So how can this be done?

What i mean is, When i build my main speakers, i want to have an 8", 6", 4" and a tweeter in each box.

Now i know that i cant just run one wire to all the speakers and expect them to handle whatever frequencies are sent to them based upon there freq response.

So i know i need some type of crossover.
basically, i guess i need to know what kind of crossover i need to get to be able to split a signal 4 ways.
my amp has L/R output response of 50 Hz – 20 kHz.

now my sub will handle anything up to about 200Hz, and probably higher since i will also throw in 2x10" woofers in there at some point before i get my L/R built. (is this making sense? my sub will have one 12" doing 10Hz - 200Hz, and 2 10" doing from 200Hz - ???Hz)

So i want my "mains" to handle what is being sent to it.
but i also want these speakers to work with other units, not just mine.

So, Im thinking that my 8" will handle what my 2x10" doesnt.
Lets just say, everything from 400Hz - 800Hz (arguments sake only) then my 6" to cover 800Hz - 2000Hz, then my 4" to cover 2000Hz - 10000Hz, and my tweeters to handle 10000Hz - 20000Hz.
(all of the above values are fictional and used only for trying to get my point across)

So what would be the best way to do this and how should i setup my sub, and L/R to handle what frequencies??

My sub will be powered using a Rythmik Audio 380W plate amp.
Not sure how i will power the 2x10" that i will put into later, but i will cross that bridge when i come to it.

I'm mostly concerned about my L/R speakers and what frequencies each driver should cover and how to get it to cover that freq. range.

so the 8" should handle ???Hz - ???Hz
the 6" should handle ???Hz - ???Hz
and so on and so forth.

I hope this makes sense cause if i can get this sorted now, then i can start designing so that when i do get all the drivers for this, i can simply start building.

 

[Dan Hine]

is this making sense? my sub will have one 12" doing 10Hz - 200Hz, and 2 10" doing from 200Hz - ???Hz

It makes sense what you intend to do. But there is no good reason to do it.

Sorry to rain on your parade, and part of me feels bad for doing it. But I'd like to see you have a good system and by going your current route you will NOT have one. If you really want to design your own speaker you'll have to get some more knowledge...stay here and read (you don't even have to post...just read) buy Vance Dickason's Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, David Weems Great Sound Stereo Speaker Manual or any other book someone here recommends...read them, then buy a whole lot of test equipment...then start designing. If you don't want to go through that process then build a speaker with a design already laid out...Adire Audio, Madisound, Speakerbuilder.net, Stryke, GR Research, Dan Wesnor's designs, etc...

I'm sorry it's not as easy as you want it to be...believe me I wish it was. If you just start throwing drivers and random crossovers in a box you'll end up with speakers that sound like ***, a much lighter wallet and likely an ulcer or two from the frustration.

- Dan Hine

 

[Anthony_I]

didint think it would be easy. and your not raining on my parade, otherwise i wouldnt have posted this if i didnt want to do it right. though i dont want to buy/read books.
But i want to put 2 10" woofers in my sub to handle some mid bass as well as the low of the lows.

what would be a good combo for L/R speakers then? something that sounds good and covers the range that my sub does not?

 

[Brian Bunge]

Leave the sub as is (why would you want to add 2 10's?) and get a kit from one of the companies Dan mentioned. Any of the GR A/V series speakers would be nice (probably A/V-3 towers if you want more midbass) or maybe the Adire KIT281 towers.

 

[Dan Hine]

Anthony,

I agree with Brian, skip the 10" subs. Adding them will do much more harm than good. In fact, find a sole to buy your PG 12" and add that to the money you were going to spend on the 10" subs and get something like an AV12 or AV15. But even if you keep the PG, just leave it at that and build mains (and center/surrounds if you're building an HT).

what would be a good combo for L/R speakers then?

There are many. What is your budget? And are you building towards an HT or just sticking with a stereo set up?

- Dan

 

[Anthony_I]

Im not going to get rid of the PG, it sounds good and my setup is MAINLY used for musical purposes, But it will be used as an HT system as well.
as far as budget is concered, i havent really figured that out yet as i usually figure out what i will need and then save up to buy it.
I dont have money to buy 2x10" yet, so i cant add any money to that
I want my sub to also be able to handle some mid bass as well, and not strictly the low low bass that it does now.
I was thinking of adding a switch to bypass the 10" speakers for certain purposes such as watching a movie where it might sound shitty. or being able to use them when im listening to tunes.
But where would it sound like shit with the 2 10's added? during movies or music or both?

 

[Darren_T]

Hi Anthony,

You really don't want your sub to handle ANY mid bass as you will have to deal with localization and distortion. A subwoofer is just that. SUBwoofer. It should not go any higher than 100hz and optimaly 60-80hz. That's it.

I'd go with some AV2's, AV3's or Adire Kit 281's with a good 15" subwoofer such as a Tempest or AV15. Don't attempt to design your own speaker at this point. You can save a lot of money and headache going with a kit. That's what I did. I'm just now buying equipment to design speakers for fun and I am still green after a year and a half in DIY. I don't expect to come up with anything worthwhile for a year or two if that. It takes quite a bit of tinkering and knowhow to come up with even a good 2 way design.

I built 5 AV2's for my home theater and music listening. My low end is currently handled by a 214L vented Tempest sub. You wouldn't believe the quality of HT and music reproduction I get with these affordable speakers. You would be blown away for sure. You should see if there is someone in your area with a kit.

I believe Dan's suggestion to skip the 2 10's was because having multiple subwoofers in a single room can cause cancellation . It would do much more harm than good since they woul be playing duplicate frequencies with your Subwoofer and crossing the 10's over in a mid bass configuration would probably be a nightmare to integrate into your mains.

 

[Dan Hine]

I believe Dan's suggestion to skip the 2 10's was because having multiple subwoofers in a single room can cause cancellation and nulls from hell. It would do much more harm than good since they would be playing duplicate frequencies with your Subwoofer and crossing the 10's over in a mid bass configuration would probably be a nightmare to integrate into your mains.

Yes, that is part of it. The other reason is that it isn't necessary. Why waste money on something you don't need (that would also cause the problems Darren said) when you could add that money to your "mains fund" and build better speakers?

Also, you want your sub to handle mid bass? It will, that's the 30hz-80hz region.

If it's a mostly music system then I would probably go with Adire's vented HE12.1's. I used to own the HE10.1's and they were really good in their own right. The only thing is you run into issues with running an HT with them since they are not shielded. Adire's Kit281's with the LCC would probably be great, as would GR's AV2's or AV3's with a matching center.

But I can't make up your mind for you. Read some of the sites of the companies listed...if that's not too much trouble for you.

 

[Darren_T]

Also, you want your sub to handle mid bass? It will, that's the 30hz-80hz region.

Shows what I know eh Told ya I was green. I was under the assumption midbass was around 120hz.

 

[RichardHOS]

Anthony, what you are asking for is tremendously difficult. It would take someone here who already had read the books, had plenty of experience with speaker designs, and had all the required test equipment and design software months (or more?) to come up with a good six way design like you described in your previous post.

Scratch that... I'm not sure if anyone would come up with a good six-way in a few months... if ever (not using passive crossovers at least). Or, more to the point, even if a decent six-way speaker were designed, it would likely be outperformed by a good three or four-way design (counting the subwoofer).

So... even if you are convinced that you only need a four-way instead of a six-way, it is still a difficult design challenge. There are no "quick" answers to be given. If you want to do the design yourself, it's going to require reading either lots of information from posts here, or (the easier route) reading a book or two on the subject of speaker building (mentioned above). And, probably asking a ton of questions here over the next year or so.


Or, you can take the good advice already given, and go the route of a kit speaker. The design has already been done, you do the construction, and you get a hell of a speaker for a very affordable price, complete with the satisfaction of having built it with your own hands.

 

[Anthony_I]

First of all, I was also under the impression that mid-bas was somewhere around 100Hz or so.
But if mid bass is only the 30-80 Hz region, then your mains would start at 80Hz then?
Also my main reason for wanting to add the two 10" subs is because with my 12", ive noticed that at some parts in some songs (namely like bass tester songs, or songs that simply have HUGE bass) sometimes it doesnt have the punch (i think thats the word im looking for... how do you describe punch?) or the same sound, as other speakers (well, my buddies set of 12" JL Audio something or others, even though they are in bad looking shape)
I got to thinking though that this could be a result of my room?? since he has a different room than i do?
also, on a more esthtic level, i can get 10" speakers that are the same kind as the 12" i have, and it would look pretty damn cool. (which has nothing to do with sound, but i do like things that are "pleasing" to the eye, and they do sound good, on their own anyway)


Im not buying speakers for a sub anymore, ive got the driver and the box, i just need to get my amp and shit for it. otherwise it works now and it works great as it is, it does however need a few minor tweaks.
In hindsight however, i probably should have gone with a 15" or an 18".... I may actually, at some point in the distant future, build an 18" bass beast

As for not using the 2 10" speakers, I will take that advice form people who know, but i just get thoughts about things so dont take this as being stubborn or whatever, the thoughts just sort of need to be resolved.
But if i added 2 10's, then wouldnt that, in some ways be like using the 10" in the sub, instead of in the mains? and then i coiuld have smaller mains?

I will look at a few of those kits, and more than likely buy one.... but the only thing that sways me from that is the fact that i cant hear this stuff before i buy it.
The reason i bought the PG was because i heard it and a bunch of others, and of all the ones in my price range that i heard (and could buy locally) this was th eone that not only sounded the way i wanted it to, but looked good as well... at least for a subwoofer anyway. like i said, i like eye candy (but that isnt the deciding point in my purchases)

 

[Brian Bunge]

For the "punch" that you're looking for, you should have built the 1ft^3 sub. MDF is cheap so you still can. If/When you decide to build that "bass beast" you'd get a lot more for your money if you skipped 99% of the car audio drivers, including PG.

From most of what you've said, looking cool is paramount and performance is a distant second. And you still don't have enough respect for yourself and others here to refrain from using profanity in practically every single one of your posts.

 

[Anthony_I]

I like the designs on the adire site, but which kit would someone reccomended for a good set of L/R speakers.
Something that will do bass as well (but higher than my sub woofer can do... i think thats obvious right?)
I'm not sure if it matters but here is the frequency response for each channel of my reciever unit.

 Speaker Frequency Response Output Impedance
 Front 50 Hz – 20 kHz 115W 8 Ù
 Center 70 Hz – 20 kHz 52W 6 Ù
 Rear 150 Hz – 20 kHz 52W 6 Ù
 Subwoofer 30 Hz – 2 kHz 115W 8 Ù

I dont think the impedance listed there is correct.
Im assuming that was taken from the manual but i copied it from a website.
the back of the unit states that the speakers are 8 Ohms. Also it says the sub repsponse is 30Hz - 2kHz but i can play a 10Hz test tone, and it will drive my speaker. so they may be slightly less accurate. but those could also be the ranges where the sound really starts to be heard.

 

[Dan Hine]

quote:

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(not using passive crossovers at least)

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Well i would be using crossovers if i was making a multi-speaker box

There is a difference between ACTIVE crossovers and PASSIVE crossovers. Active crossovers take place before amplification and have separate gain controls for each channel (i.e. driver in the speaker) in order to set the levels to your liking...that's it in a nutshell anyway.

Passive crossovers are found AFTER the amplification and require much more complex circuits to be designed to account for the different efficiencies of the drivers, the impedence, etc... While neither is really "easy" I would say that active crossovers are not as hard to tweak as passive crossovers are.

- Dan

 

[TimForman]

It seems to me that speaker design for many goes full circle. You start out with something simple, get into more complicated stuff and then head back towards simple. I like simple. Simple eliminates stuff like crossover humps and dips, phasing problems and timbre matching. Give me an array of full range drivers and a powerful sub and I be a happy man.

 

[Anthony_I]

i got no problem with simple designs, the problem is finding one that sounds god, and that will fill in the bass that my sub doesnt cover.
Mind you i dont yet have the amp for it (though payment has been sent im just waiting now) which may help the sound.
also i dont want to miss any frequencies being sent ot the speakers. (does that make sense?)
a 10" will have better bass than an 8" would it not?
So shouldnt my mains have like a 10", a 6" and a tweeter at least?
that way the mains will catch what bass my sub doesnt, but also do the full range.

 

[Michael R Price]

Anthony,

Your subwoofer should probably handle all the bass unless it's weaker than the mains... and with an 80Hz crossover frequency, speakers with a 6" woofer should be adequately powerful. No 10" driver is necessary. If you want better bass you could just build a new subwoofer.

Are you still planning to design your own, or will you select a kit?

 

[Anthony_I]

probably a little bit of both.
pick my own drivers and build the box myself, but use a kit for the crossovers.
Adire has the instructions free for download.
I can get any/all of those parts required to build a crossover, from a local electronics store (no not ratshack)


Also it isnt that i want better bass so-to-speak, but im looking to augment my current subwoofer by having mains that will handle the higher forms of bass that my sub cant[shouldn't]. Plus, my reciever is 114W per channel (L/R) and its full range. (down to 50Hz anyway)

if a 6" is adequately powerful, then what would be the difference in using 10" instead. or even an 8"?
Then i can also add a 4"? and a tweeter?

Im not so much concerned about having speakers that are small.
I also dont really want to have giant speakers, maybe something in between (and yes i do realize that size doesnt matter and that bigger isnt always better. i just dont really want boxes/speakers that are "small")

 

[Anthony_I]

legacy.pioneerelectronics.com/PioneerCanadaEng/CDA/HomeProducts/POC_Eng_HomeProductDetails/0,1850,2717,00.html

This links to a page on pioneers site with info about the my unit.

 

[Jason_Me]

An Adire Kit 281 or 12.1 will have plenty of mid bass punch, and sound far better then any original design you throw together. Sorry to be so blunt.