Building a sub, need LOTS of advice! : )

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Justin Scott, Dec 14, 2002.

  1. Justin Scott

    Justin Scott Auditioning

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    Hey, I am new here. Need some help.
    I want to build a sub for music only.
    I am looking at either a Shiva 12" driver or Stryke Audio 12" AV-12.
    The AV-12 is the same driver SVS uses, that is a big plus to the Shiva which has a foam surround and just looks to not be as good of quality.
    Is this a good assumption?
    Now. I want to make a sub that is small enough but will still give out great output. I have chosen the SonoSub design because it has such a small foot print. Is there a better design I should look at?
    Can someone point me to a design that is about 30 inches or so tall? I want it to be about the size of my Klipsch Heresy's but bigger is just fine.
    Here comes another question.
    My receiver is a vintage one, so it does not have a subwoofer output. Can I use the tape out into the amp's stereo input?
    [​IMG]
    This is a parts express amp, same as the adire audio and stryke audio 250W amp, this one has a remote controled crossover and volume. [​IMG]
    So, could I take the tape out from the receiver and go into the stereo in on the amp, set the crossover to whatever (what would you suggest? heresy's stop around 60Hz). Would that work?
    My receiver is a vintage Harman Kardon HK430. It has a button on it called Low Cut. It is obvious what this does, so could I not hit Low Cut and it would cut out the low frequencies to the sepakers so i would not get distortion when I turn it up becaues now I would have a subwoofer?
    Is this all making sense?
    Thanks for all the help.
    Stryke AV-12 VS Adire Shiva
    [​IMG]
    Stryke AV12 T/S
    Fs: 21Hz
    Qms: 4.41
    Qes: .399
    Qts: .366
    Vas: 88 L
    Re: 2.97 ohm
    Z: 4 ohm
    BL: 15 Tm
    Cms: .25 mm/N
    Mms: 228 g
    Pe: 500W
    1W/1m: 85.5dB
    2.83V: 89.5dB
    Xmax: 23 mm
    Xsus: 30 mm
    Sd: 498 sq cm
    Vd: 2.33 L
    Shiva
    Shiva features:
    - 650W power rating
    - Dual 8 ohm voice coils
    - 15.4mm linear magnetic excursion, one way (over 1.2" peak to peak, linear!)
    - 22.3mm linear suspension travel, one way (over 1.75" peak to peak)
    - 26mm maximum one-way excursion (over 2" peak to peak)
    - Recommended enclosures start at 26 liters - less than 1 cubic foot
    - Suited for sealed, vented, bandpass, and PR based systems
    Once again, thanks.
     
  2. Owen Bartley

    Owen Bartley Second Unit

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    Justin, I'm not sure about using the tape out, I really don't know if that would work. I think you'd be better off using the speaker level signal from your main L/R channels into the sub amp, using the amp's crossover, and going out from the sub to the main L/R speakers. Does that make sense? It should be fine unless you have a really long or convoluted cable run to your speakers.

    As far as the drivers, I can't help you out choosing, except to say that I've seen many many people happy with both of them, so there might not be a wrong choice. Good luck!
     
  3. Justin Scott

    Justin Scott Auditioning

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    so, would i be able to control the volume of the amp and speakers through the receiver if i did it that way?

    what powers the speakers then? still the receiver?

    would it color the sound any?

    would the plate amp set a crossover for the spaekrs too so that they don't try to reproduce 20hz?
     
  4. FYI, stryke's driver is NOT the same as SVS's. Foam surrounds have a bad rap. They are now just as good as rubber or sanoprene. Foam surrounds are now treated so they do not exhibit foam rot.
    ...Also, don't judge drivers just by looks (with your comment on the shiva). If that were the case, them most car audio drivers would be the Subwoofer-God's gift to the world [​IMG]
    ..i am not sure about the other stuff since I am not familiar with a tape out.
     
  5. Justin Scott

    Justin Scott Auditioning

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    Well, Stryke's is made by TC Sounds and the SVS Improved Standard Driver and SVS's dB-12 which even shares a similar name, the look is nearly identical. is also made by TC Sounds and they have the same frame and all that good stuff as the Stryke, just the Stryke AV-12 is painted. yeah yeah, hehe, looks don't mean everything, but it means a lot in some cases.
    So, would I be just as good with the Shiva 12"?
    I really need a great link to a page (well a link to a great page I guess) where someone built a mid sized 12 inch woofer based SonoSub. I looked at the basic box design but I really want a Sonosub because of the floor space I lack. I can be up to about 30 inches. I have this link, http://members.tripod.com/~terrycthe...m/page12.html, but which one on that site should I build?
    I want to integrate the amp into the sub like Warrwick did, the second to last link on the top part of that page, http://members.optushome.com.au/wcallen/.
    Thanks.
    really if someone could answer the question about connecting everything that would be really helpful [​IMG]
     
  6. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

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    I think Dustin B.'s design would work very well. He designed two subs based on the PE DVC 12" drivers. IIRC, it's a 125L enclosure made from an 18" tube and with a full length 4" flared port. Also, I don't get the footprint comment about a sonotube based sub. You can built a box with the same footprint and taller like the tubes.
    Also, concerning the SVS drivers vs. the AV12, looks mean zip. Yes they are both built by TC Sounds and have similar (or even identical) materials. That says absolutely nothing about the specs of each driver. The only way to know for sure is to ask TV if he'll give you the specs of his driver and compare. Don't hold your breath for that one though! [​IMG]
     
  7. Justin Scott

    Justin Scott Auditioning

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    Here is the info on the SVS vs Stryke...
    Hi Justin,
    The AV12 is similar to the SVS driver, but not the same. They actually started with the same TC Sounds 2HP+ motor design. Our woofer has about 23mm Xmax. The SVS uses a shorter coil and has about 16mm. We also use the 12 spoke cast basket with the venting under the spider and dual 2ohm coils.
    The AV12 has about 2.4L of volume displacement capability. The shiva has about 1.5L. This gives the AV12 the ability to play louder and cleaner. It also has higher power handling capacity than the Shiva. As you mentioned, build quality will also be much better.
    The AV12 will work fine in a downfiring sonosub configuration.
    If you want software to design, go to www.diysubwoofers.org and get the vented.xls or sealed.xls excell spreadsheets. Those will figure out volumes, tuning, etc just as good as any other program. Then you just need to convert from the volume to the dimensions of the tube. You can look up formulas for that just about anywhere, or post on the HTF for help, or ask me.
    John
    I will check out DustinB's sub but at nearly 6 feet tall, i think it is a little too big for me.
    Anyone know what the best way to connect to my receiver would be? Thanks! I am going with the AV-12 sub, seems to be a better driver overall. Just have to wait a while for it to arrive I guess...
    talking about footprints... an 18" diameter or 24" diameter sonosub would be easier for me to place in my room than a sub that is square and that big or bigger in width. that is one of the advantages of a sonosub, you can go up instead of out. 6 feet up is too much though. he used a 18 inch sonosub tube, I think I can get ahold of a 24" sonotube which would require me to only have a 50inch tube, I save about one foot? or thinner and one foot taller? hard to say which to do. both just seem too big to me. I was looking for something that would work as a sub, and a bed stand or table at around 30-40 inches.
    i don't really understand how to tune a sub to a certain frequency and why you do that? what is the advantage of a 16hz tuned sub to a 20hz tuned sub? is that the frequency from which it is loudest? this is a purely music sub, so I do NOT want boomy bass. quality is far more important than quantity, but I still want bass that will keep up with my Heresy's which surprise me everyday with their power and speed.
     
  8. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

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    Justin,

    That still says very little about the overall Thiele/Small parameters of the SVS vs. the AV12. It appears the AV12 has the excursion advantage though.

    Anyway, the subs I was referring to were the dual DVC 12's which Dustin built. IIRC, they were between 30-40" tall. The 6' tall monster is a Tempest-based sub.

    What I was saying about footprints is, you can build a box that is 18" x 18" and then whatever height you want. If you're saying that the sonotube would be easier to place in your room due to being lighter in weight, then yes, I agree.

    Tuning frequency is a function of enclosure size, port diameter, and port length. Change any of the 3 and the tuning point changes. Tuning low (say 17-25Hz) brings peaks in group delay down to the lower frequency range where it is less audible. Also, tuning around the driver's Fs helps to protect it from over-excursion.
     
  9. Dave Milne

    Dave Milne Supporting Actor

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    Justin,
    The problem with using the "tape out" is that it's fixed level. Changing the receiver's volume control won't affect it. Thus, is a real pain to adjust the sub level every time you change the volume. I assume your HK doesn't have "pre out" jacks. If that's the case, you're stuck with speaker-level connections. The receiver power amps introduce some noise and distortion, but many people set things up this way and are report good results. A little extra grunge in the subwoofer region is rarely audible.

    You should not use the "low cut" switch on your receiver because that would roll off the bass at the output and "starve" your sub of bass signal.
     
  10. Justin Scott

    Justin Scott Auditioning

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    i normally just ste the volume and leave it. i have a few other ways to connect it that i will investigate. right now i am waiting on an email from Dustin B. :b
     
  11. MichaelAngelo

    MichaelAngelo Stunt Coordinator

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    Justin,
    Without buying a new reciever, it sounds like the high level inputs are your answer. You run the speaker leads from your reciever to the amp, then run leads from the amp to the speakers. The amp has an adjustable crossover that will send the bass to the sub and the rest to the main speakers. This way, the volume control on your reciever will control the volume for sub and main speakers. You will still be able to adjust the loudness of the sub relative to the main speakers, via the Gain control on the plate amp. But the overall volume will be controlled via the volume knob on your reciever.

    Hope this helps.
     
  12. Justin Scott

    Justin Scott Auditioning

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    I have tried many different receivers, one costing $900, and none sounded as good as the HK430 with the Heresy's.
    Like I said, touching the volume control is not a problem, especially since the HK430 is not remote controlled to begin with, I will be up anyways if I change the volume.
    My dad was born in Port Arthur, not far from Beaumont [​IMG]
     
  13. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    Sorry Justin. I've got your email, I'll hopefully get time to write out a reply later tonight.
     
  14. Justin Scott

    Justin Scott Auditioning

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    Wow, seems everyone is on this forum! LoL! can't wait for you to laugh at my email hehe. Thanks for the reply once you get time. I know how it is. I get about 50 emails asking for help a day... yeouch!
     

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