Buffy Season 1: Any Spoilers in Special Features? (1 Viewer)

[Eddy-C]

Actually when you get to Angel season 4 and Buffy season 7 alternating between discs won't help with crossovers since Buffy and Angel had different airing schedules that year. Theres one thing that happens completely out of order if you go by broadcast dates.

So make sure you see Salvage and Release before you watch Lies My Parents Told Me. Then watch Orpheous before you watch Dirty Girls.

 

[Chip_HT]

(there is the list on page 2....)

 

[Kevin Grey]

Is it enough just to watch all of Angel S4 and then go to Buffy S7? I know that the character people are referring to Faith I believe
starts on Angel and goes to Buffy but does any of the Buffy story come back to Angel?

Despite not having completed Season 6 of Buffy (in the middle of Hell's Bells) I've already started Season 3 of Angel. I enjoyed the first half of Buffy s6 (Wrecked was the last episode I really enjoyed) but I've hit the wall since then. The season seems to be treading water since then with almost no character or plot development in four or five episodes (a Buffy first). It feels like they didn't have enough material for a full season and had to insert a bunch of filler.

 

[Scott_F_S]

Kevin, yes, that would be OK to watch all of Angel 4 first. But watch Buffy 7 before you see Angel 5.

As for Buffy 6, hang in there, as it does pick up steam again toward the end of the season. But I agree with your statement that the middle part of that season was filler more than anything else.

 

[Wendy_L]

I think every episode from "Hell's Bells" on is excellent in Season 6.

I loved the end of Season 2 of "Angel". Thought it was funny and entertaining...and it introduced a character I really ended up liking.

 

[Kevin Grey]

Good to hear about S6.

I totally agree on the end of Angel S2. I gather it was a bit of a controversial switch in tone but I thought it was a ton of fun and one of my favorite arcs in all of Buffy and Angel so far. It helped that I had already been warned in the switch of tone earlier by Ray.

 

[Wendy_L]

Kevin, I'm so happy you started this thread. It's great seeing the show through your eyes. Report back after you finish Season 6...and Season 3 of "Angel".

 

[Kevin Grey]

I will, Wendy. Thanks! Hopefully I'll finish up Buffy S6 soon but Angel is so darn addicting!

 

[Kevin Grey]

Finished up S3 of Angel last night. Great stuff. Probably the best Mutant Enemy season yet. I wrote previously that the character work in Season 2 was great if quite not at the level of Buffy. I'd have to say that the character work in Angel S3 is probably the best of either series so far. Pretty amazing to see the changes in most of the characters compared to the beginning of the season, much less the series. In particular I thought Alexis Denisof put in some amazing work. Wesley has certainly come a long way from Season 3 of Buffy.

It was quite the emotional rollercoaster though. It was almost painful to watch the episodes of the last half of the season becaues you knew that things would never work out easily. My favorite/most disturbing moment was

Angel smothering Wes in the hospital.


It was shocking and yet it wasn't since it really seemed in character and wasn't the easy way out which is something the Buffy/Angel writers almost always avoid.

I think Angel S3 is probably the first time one of the ME seasons has ended on a conventional cliffhanger.

Still haven't finished Buffy S6 yet. I'm going to knock out the final few episodes there before embarking on Angel S4.

 

[Wendy_L]

I watched Angel S4, episodes 1 and 2, last night. So far so good. Unfortunately, Kevin will probably finish before me because I'm renting it and rotating it with 3 other shows, so I'll only get in about one disc per week.

 

[Eddy-C]

Glad you enjoyed Angel S3. Wesley IMO is the best character on Angel and as Joss Whedon once said Alexis is the most under-rated actor in hollywood.

 

[Kevin Grey]

Finished up Buffy S6 a few nights ago and I thought I'd write up my (rather long) thoughts on it:

Weakest season of Buffy yet. Initially I thought it might be slightly better or tied with Season 4 but after thinking about it for a few days I was definitely more disappointed and frustrated with S6 than S4.

The season started well enough and I was very happy with the show up through Tabula Rosa. Then the problems started-

First with "Smashed" and "Wrecked": I hate, hate, hate the "magic is addictive" storyline. This was by far the most lazy writing the Buffy writers have ever taken part in. Metaphor is a mainstay of the series but couldn't they have come up with something more subtle than some kind of magic/heroin den and evil magic/drug dealers? Its hard to believe this was the same writing staff that did such a wonderful witchcraft/homosexuality parallel two seasons before.

Making it even worse I found the whole Willow storyline completely contrary to everything about witchcraft ever presented on the show. Magic highs, physical addiction, the shakes- none of this stuff was ever even shown or mentioned in the previous five seasons. It's sad too because a similar storyline could have been done based on the premise that magic is corrupting just like any sort of great power. That take would be entirely consistent with the Buffyverse as laid out.

I expected that magic addiction stuff would at least segue nicely into the Evil Willow stuff I knew was coming but the show disappointed me there too. By using Tara as the catalyst for Willow snapping all of the Willow-addiction stuff earlier in the season became moot. I think Willow might have done exactly the same thing as far back as Season Four. Willow going dark really had nothing to do with her addiction storyline.

I'm not sure I'm impressed with Evil Willow either. I'll have to reserve complete judgement on it until I see Season 7 to see how they deal with the ramifications (if they do) but for now it looks like it will end up being "Willow was possessed and therefore has no responsibility about the people she killed." I hope I'm wrong on this.

The overall season story arc was very weak too. I enjoyed the trio when they were first introduced but they never built up any menace at all until Warren pulled the gun out in "Seeing Red." I was hoping for a more concrete master plan than "we'll just steal a whole bunch of money." The batch of episodes between "Gone" and "Entropy" was a character development and story wasteland and I have no desire to ever rewatch any of those episodes.

Then there's the complete assassination of Xander's character. Dear Lord this show has no idea what to do with him. Xander has always been one of my favorites but he's just treading water. We first dealt with the whole "Xander feels useless" in the great Season 3 episode "The Zeppo" and I had hoped at the time to see him get over that issue and mature. But then he totally regressed in Season 4. It looked like it was finally fixed early in Season 5 in "The Replacement." Season 5 Xander was more confident, found a job he was good at, could sustain himself and Anya comfortably, etc. This was finally capped in "The Gift" when he proposed to Anya- he made it clear that he wasn't doing it because it could be the end of the world and, indeed, the fact that he already had the engagement ring on him showed that he had been planning it before that night.

But all of this was destroyed with the wedding subplot in Season 6. I understand that Xander is supposed to be nervous since he had such horrible parents but it still felt like a complete regression. The whole subplot felt contrived just to eke out a bit more emotion and angst. And Xander finally redeems himself, for the third time or fourth time, in "Grave" and, boy, do I hope it sticks this time.

I also thought SMG's performance was poor much of the season too. I think they were going for emotionally distant but it came off as "mopey four year old" to me. Huge lost opportunity considering her character arc for the season too.

I also found the direction rather pedestrian. Each season before seemed to only widen the scope but Season 6 felt almost like a sitcom with most of the scenes set in Buffy's house, The Magic Box, and Spike's Crypt. What's strange is that many of the same directors doing such mundane work on Buffy do great, cinematic work on Angel. Maybe they are responding to the material.

There is no doubt that my frustrations are compounded with watching Angel Seasons 2 & 3 deal with many of the same issues in a much more believable and dramatic manner. Both Angel S2&3 had characters going dark and even betraying the group and the Angel creative staff makes a point that forgiveness and regaining trust is a long and hard process. In contrast, everyone on Buffy steps all over themselves in their rush to forgive every transgression and reaffirm their friendship.

 

[Paul_Scott]

wow Kevin.
disappointed to hear you had such a negative reaction to S6.
needless to say, i don't share many of your criticisms about the way the material was handeld here, because S6 really lit my fire.
as far as the magic=drug addiction metaphor- i see a lot of people really annoyed with this and i don't really understand the level of disgust. i dunno- maybe you guys have seen this relayed in other material, shows or books or comics i havent seen, but for me it worked alright.
i think it works even better if you just view 'magic' as a vehicle for power to Willow, and the older i get the more i realize how addictive (and frequently prone to abuse) power can be.
i'm always saying in the SW threads about how many things could have been handled differently and better, and being met with incredulity because the fans can't see beyond what is on screen, so i won't say that the material here couldn't have been handled differently and have been superior in the process, but for me i just didn't have a big problem with it. what i got out of the positives far outweighed and niggling negatives.
maybe my opinion will change upon a second veiwing of the material, who knows- but for right now i really appreciated this one.
as for the trio not having a concrete plan or grand agenda, for me that worked well as a refreshing change of pace, and then set up later events to have even more of an impact since we had pretty much dismissed these clowns as capable of any sort of serious impact.

as far as S7 and Willow and repurcushions, iirc and without getting into any spoilers, it starts out promising in that regard- including a really ghoulish early ep that brings her back into the fold so to speak, but later it somewhat peters out and just isn't that big a factor.didn't bother me a whole lot, but i could see where others may have been disappointed with the lack of depth, especially since S7, even more than S6 seems to be a scattershot melange of events, rather than something precise hurtling forward.
i really have no great problems with any of the seasons.
7 was a bit slack, but highly entertaining in a 'popcorn' sense, but the best of Buffy (haven't watched Angel yet) transcends its genre and becomes something else

 

[Kevin Grey]

Haven't watched Angel? Ack! What are you waiting for? As I've mentioned before I think Angel so far meets and exceeds just about anything Buffy has done.

 

[Scott_F_S]

Omigod, Paul. You haven't seen Angel? What Kevin said: Start now. I'm not one of those people who will argue that Angel is hands down the superior show. Buffy is the one that set the standard to begin with. But where Buffy was the work of a team of rookies who sometimes lost their direction, Angel was the product of a team of people who had solid footing and really knew what they were doing.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Paul,

1) I agree that Angel is very much worth your time.

2) I agree with KG's assessment of S6. The issue isn't the power corrupts, it's the extraordinary poor direction and scripts found in episodes 9, 10, and 11 (the dreaded third disc). I actually felt like I was watching fan directors making fan fic with lookalikes. The episodes are terrible. The rest of S6 is hot and cold. There have always been lulls in Buffy, punctuated by brilliance. There are still highs to be had in S6, but there are some significant valleys as well.

3) I 1000% agree on Xander.

4) S6 is by no means a bad season of TV. It's far better than the average. It has all the ideas and arcs there (except for Xander's), but the execution is weaker than in previous seasons. The subtlety (what there was of it) and tone are lacking. Buffy set a very high standard in earlier seasons.

Take care,
Chuck

 

[Paul_Scott]

i was actually speaking more specifically of the use of the 'drugs = magic' metaphor. i don't read Vertigo stuff, and haven't much followed comics regularly in general for about 20 yrs now, but i could see the same thing in that medium being beaten to a bloody cliche by now (just like the dark, brooding, urban noir style was actually a novelty once).
i still don't really get the antipathy for the basic conceit here.
the way i viewed it willow resurrects Buffy, not just because she misses & needs her, but because she believes she has become powerful enough to do it.
the good intention is there, it lights the match so to speak, but its her hubris that is the accelerant.
and raising someone from the dead, even in this fantasy show is treated as a big deal (Buffy struggles with it all season long) and therefore someone who could perform something like that, i'm sure would be in a place where they feel that the normal rules no longer apply to them- that they can master anything.

Kevin, its possible you may have a scenario, in regards to willows arc, in your head that i would absolutely endorse and find more appealing than what happened in the show or i may just not be fully understanding your criticisms

willow accomplishing something so powerful (resurrecting Buffy)
leading to a casual abuse(thru hedonistic trivial pursuit?) of power
which in turn leads to circumspection and guilt (i'm Catholic, that part will always resonate with me) and a conscious effort to change a lifestyle
only to be faced with a traumatic event and in weakness fall back into your old destructive habits with a vengence.

i found the plotting of that to be ...satisfying...not only in concept but in its general execution.
like i said, i'm not dismissing out of hand that things like the blatantcy of the drug dealer/crack den couldn't have been handled with more sophistication or subtlety, but it really didn't bother me, because i felt it served the larger purpose (of putting willows fantasy dilemna in a 'relatable' context)

Xander may have been ill served in S6 (and S7 for that matter), but he has a great speech to dawn at the end of one of the eps of S7 that really gave me moist eyes and puts his position in all this into context.

much like Batman Begins, there are definitely some problems and flaws in this material, but dammit these guys do so doggone many things right, and consistently better than the status quo, that i happily overlook the occasional pot(plot)holes.

 

[Kevin Grey]

I have zero criticisms with this approach as stated here. My criticism is with the completely blatant drugs metaphor (primarily the nature of fixes, physical addiction, getting high, etc) none of which you mention in this summary. Its heavy, ham-handed, and utterly lacking in any finesse.

Corruption through power is at its most interesting in dramatic terms to me when its linked to personal motivations. When magic ceases to become a choice on Willow's part and becomes a physical need or addiction out of her control then it loses dramatic power. Willow's poor choices lose impact because the audience understands that its the physical addiction driving the choice and not a deliberate choice on the part of the person.

Willow makes the poor choice of dabbling too heavy in magic however once she enters the hardcore addiction phase featured in "Smashed" and "Wrecked" her reckless actions (almost getting Dawn killed in particular) have little to do with personal choice and far more to do with utter lack of judgement exhibited by someone either too high to think clearly or going through extreme physical withdrawal.

Then later in the series all of Willow's "evil" acts are done in the guise of "Dark Willow" and seem to obsolve her of any responsibiity. It would have been far more interesting dramatically if it had been a sane but vengeful Willow who killed Warren. However by incorportaing "Dark Willow" the Buffy writers give themselves an easy out on any personal responsibiity. They even go so far as to have her say "Willow doesn't live here anymore" to make it completely clear to the audience that its not the character we've watched for the past six seasons carrying out these rehensible acts.

Season 6 of Buffy was all about the reset button to me. Too many dramatic conflicts were resolved within one or two episodes. Willow almost kills Dawn in "Wrecked" but by the next episode Dawn and Buffy are by her side helping her through the addiction. Xander feels betrayed Anya and Spike sleeping together as well as Buffy keeping her relationship with Spike a secret, but he's full of forgiveness in the next episode. Riley finds out that Buffy is sleeping with Spike but brushes it off within five minutes.

Forgiveness comes way too easy to these characters. Even Willow and Tara's breakup was resolved without any attempt at dealing with forgiveness and trust. Tara even goes as far as to say to skip that part "and get to the kissing."

Compare that to someone like Faith who also does evil through personal choice and later must go through a long, painful recovery to redeem herself.

Saying all of this I must reiterate what Chuck said earlier, Buffy is not bad TV and I still enjoyed the majority of Season 6. In fact, I blew through the final five episodes in one sitting when I had only intended to watch one. I just don't think its at the level of the previous seasons and I find that particuarly frustrating because all of the material was there for one of the best seasons.

 

[Scott_F_S]

Yep.

To be honest, I was quite underwhelmed and a little disappointed in Angel S1 (watched it and Buffy on DVD, never in broadcast). But I had to continue with S2, just because I had to. And, boy, was I happy I did. Angel S2 was a revelation, and it only got better from there.

 

[Kevin Grey]

Just watched the Angel ep "Apocalypse Nowish"- holy crap! Best Angel episode yet. Great dark, ominous feeling and the best action sequence in either series yet. It was so good I would have thought Whedon directed it.