Brick&Mortar experience - minor rant! (1 Viewer)

[DarrylM]

In were 50 button neon AV recievers with hiss and hum and underpowered amps.

LOL So true. Sadly, as higher end electronics are increasingly marketed to a broader audience, they try to appeal more and more to the Joe Average consumer. Joe Average cares less about performance and more about things like having little dolphins swimming around on the faceplate of his in-dash CD player and "Bass Boost" buttons.

 

[Bob McElfresh]

Joe Average cares less about performance and more about things like having little dolphins swimming around on the faceplate of his in-dash CD player

Be careful here. Many times the marketing department comes up with these 'eye-candy' features not based on consumer wants, but on other research. (Look at cell phones with crappy digital cameras - nobody asked for them but when one company started offering them, everybody had to carry models with similar features.)

Paul - what are the 'good' stores in the area? I have relatives in Agoura that I visit and might want to spend a day browsing.

 

[Jeff D.]

You owe it to yourself to check out e-tailers...some of these firms are the new virtual B&Ms of our day.

It amazes me how this mentality pervades on these forums...one of the reasons I pay little attention to the HTF these days.

You owe it to yourself to check out your local B&M stores...ALL of these firms are part of your local community, pay taxes in your area, and employ staff who (hopefully) put back into your community.

First of all, yes, there are bad B&M's and I certainly don't advocate supporting them. B&M's should offer top-tier service to justify higher prices. If they don't, then they deserve to be ignored. Having said that, it is idiotic to paint them all with the same brush just because of one bad experience.

The territories set out by the manufacturers are designed to help the B&M's. NAD does not sell their products online because they want their products to be properly demonstrated and serviced by dealers. If they sold online, or allowed cross-country shipping by dealers, the local dealer would get hurt. All it would take it one online retailer to slash the price and it would kill the independents.

BTW, NAD is still making top-quality product that blows away the likes of Denon, Pioneer etc...the brands the fanboys like on here.

I don't expect many people to take this post seriously. There are way too many people on this forum blinded by online retailers because all that matters is price.

 

[Bill Polley]

mentality??? I used to be a regular (at least 2 times a week) at the local B&Ms and seriously considered starting a business in the field. The fact is...the products are overpriced, and to get decent service you are going to pay an even higher price. The guys at SVS will tell you that there are other good subs out there. The guys at my local B&M stores would rather sit and chat amongst themselves than be bothered with a customer. When I ask questions about their products, most of the time they hand me a line of bull. I think highly of NAD and Rotel, both offered by the local B&Ms, but snobbish attitudes by sales people who don't care to wait on a guy who doesn't neccessarily look like he could afford the stuff (me!) doesn't impress me.

Calling Axiom, SVS, and Outlaw (which I have since happily bought) is a pleasure. Their customer service and support is each outstanding. I also own Parasound and a whole lot of NAD. Parasound customer support was fantastic when fixing an internal short in my amp, even though the local B&M that I bought it from gave me the runaround (and Parasound has a 10 yr warranty that the B&M didn't really care about!) I called a second Parasound B&M farther away and explained my problem, and they told me that although they were authorized, they wanted a very large service fee because I didn't buy from them (I'm not in their "territory"). I have great respect for Parasound, but don't tell me how the poor old B&Ms have it tough because all we care about is price! Each of the internet companies I have bought from run circles around the local B&Ms in price, service, and support! Their products are great too!

 

[DarrylM]

but snobbish attitudes by sales people who don't care to wait on a guy who doesn't neccessarily look like he could afford the stuff (me!) doesn't impress me

Exactly. However, since I generally don't want their salespeople nagging me anyway, with their substandard knowledge and elitist attitudes, I wear a t-shirt when I'm shopping at B&M stores. That way, I know for certain that they'll ignore me.

 

[Kenneth Harden]

That is exactly why us, the home theater and audio freaks, need to start to setup a network of our homes to audition gear. Especially people that live in big cities, it probably wouldn't be hard to find a few people in LA that had Axiom systems that they would let people listen to.

Also, Axiom and those companies need to put people on a 'commision' to reward them if the person listened at their house, then bought some gear. It could be $20 or something, just to make it worth their time and to spread the word.

 

[Kevin_Kr]

The biggest thing I have found anymore, is there is no such thing as exprtise at any B&M stores anymore, whatsoever. Even higher end ones.


Ouch- I think that is way to much generalization, I consider myself knowledgeable and very helpful on this board and work at a retail electronics store. If you are looking for someone that knows everything, good luck. If you go into the store and start spewing numerous of technical garble and your upset a salesman can't follow, I don't blame them. If you juist want a medium of information and your unable to get that I'm sorry. Do you have a tweeter or ultimate electronic, frys, or soundtrack? Typically these retailers have some salespeople with some bit of knowledge.

 

[CaseyLS]

Here you go

 

[Dan Lindley]

Simon at Audio Consultants B&M in Evanston was always great to me, even as a teen who could barely afford their low-end used gear. Always respectful and helpful. Hat's off to them.

As for my local B&M, I bought a used Denon receiver a few years back for $400. Perhaps an OK deal. But it really frosted me that they offered NO warranty for used gear. If I got it home and it didn't work, well tough on me. That left a sour taste, and I'm not really sure I'd go back hoping to whip out the credit card....

So, I don't like the blanket statements. YMMV. Do what's best for you. Different folks have different comfort levels, budgets, etc.

DL

 

[John S]

Jeff Kowerchuk's post, seems indicative of the attitude I find when going to B&M stores these days, and one of the reasons I no longer frequent them.

I looked at NAD seriously 2 years ago, as well as many others. I decided on Denon, becasue I actually prefer the way their power amps sound.

But the post sounds like a near mirror image of the people at the Brick and Mortors that sold NAD equipment, major turn off in and of itself for me.

 

[Jeff D.]

Jeff Kowerchuk's post, seems indicative of the attitude I find when going to B&M stores these days, and one of the reasons I no longer frequent them.

What attitude is that? To give the B&M's a fair chance, at least check them out with an open mind. Or is it good B&M's that encourage purchasing products based on how they _sound_, not simply because they are on sale this week?

If you take the time to re-read, I did NOT say that NAD is the end-all and be-all. I simply said that they are making quality products as they have done for 20 years and that, in my opinion, they offer a higher-quality product.

I'm not going to criticise your choice of a Denon - they also make good products. And with proper system matching (as with any product) they might even rival NAD in some quarters.

Your attitude sounds like the typical online fanboy, who never even gives the B&M's a fair chance, because to you the online world is the end-all and be-all.

Your lack of support of your local community (and this applies not just to electronics, but any and all industries) will only do you irreperable harm in the future.

 

[Lewis Besze]

I don't expect many people to take this post seriously.

You think?

 

[Paul Fa]

Ok, Ok, since I started this mess, maybe it's time for me to chime back in. I never intended this little rant to colorize all B&M's as poor choices, only to let people in areas that have good ones to realize how lucky they are! Please people, the world is already too polarized these days, where a simple statement of disagreement with anything from Presidential decisions to illegal immigration leads to people branding each other as 'Traitors' and 'Racists'. Let's not go down that road here in a great ideas sharing vehice like this forum, let's agree to disagree and enjoy the differences rather than try to convert/denigrate others.

I did go back and give that same B&M another chance with a different salesman - he was a little better, but their policies about service remain the same. Basically, unless you're one the megabucks entertainment crowd looking to add a 30 person 20' wide screening room with $5000 chairs etc. you are going to have to pay for every bit of their time - they just have too many customers that have that kind of money to spend. If there were more/better choices for me to explore in the area, I would. I believe in supporting small businesses rather than the big boxes whenever and whereever possible - but the whole reason to do so would be to get better service! There are very few small AV stores left in my area - my other choices are The Good Guys and even larger retailers - I wish from what I've heard about them on this board that we had a Tweaters in this area - they sound like a pretty good mid-sized box store. I will continue my search!

Now, back to part of my original post - can anyone give me input comparing the Axioms to the Paradigms? That is where I would decide between online vs B&M

Happy Holidays - wave and smile at someone during these hectic days just to take the edge off!!

 

[Shane Martin]

Now, back to part of my original post - can anyone give me input comparing the Axioms to the Paradigms? That is where I would decide between online vs B&M

I've heard the Studio 40's, 60's and 100's in Version 2 along with the Monitor series. The Studios are better in every way over the Monitor series. That said I think they are a little bright in the top end for me. If you think they are bright, then the Axioms are worse. The guy who bought them(2nd hand) loves the sound though so its a matter of taste. Looks wise, the cabinets on the Paradigms look better by a fair margin(IMHO). If you ask this question on the speaker forum its likely you will get varied responses. I'm not sure you can find a Paradigm dealer willing to let you take home a demo pair but that would be the best way to compare with the Axioms if bought them(their return policy is good). It's still quite likely if you listen to a speaker anywhere but home it will sound different so I would see if you can find a home demo of both if you can.

 

[Jeff D.]

From the NAD website:

wave and smile at someone during these hectic days just to take the edge off!!

I would if I could, but the online fanboys spend their lives in front of a screen, they don't go out in the real world where real people are!

 

[Lewis Besze]

Question is, do you?

I only take people's posts seriously who earned my respect.
'nough said!

 

[Shane Morales]

As with most issues, I sit on the fence with this one.

One hand: Yes, I like to save money and buying online appeals to me. My concern is MY bottomline, not the dealer's.

The other hand: I *had* to buy from a B&M store because I needed their financing. I had two to choose from: Myer Emco and Tweeter. I spent a lot of time at both stores.

Myer Emco had most of the equipment I wanted: Rotel and B&W, but I didn't really like Myer Emco. The salesman was a condescending ass; the demo rooms were setup for the super rich, not for folks like me; they hardly had any product in stock; and they were pushy. Mostly it was the sales people.

I ended buying from Tweeter because the salesman was spectaluar (see Ian at the Rockville, MD store). I would have spent about $1200 more at Myer Emco, but the service at Tweeter (Ian in particular) swayed me.

I did buy a few items online, but they were items that I had previously decided to buy online and never got any 'service' for from the dealers. In other words, I didn't waste their time. I don't feel bad for that.

I sometimes regret having had to buy from a B&M because I know I could have gotten more for my $ online. However, the great benefit of having bought at a B&M is that I went in with no preconceived notions about the equipment and basically picked out what I thought sounded the best and was in my price limit (alas, the Martin Logans were not in my price limit). I couldn't have done that online.

So I remain on the fence.

 

[JamieS]

B&M is alive and well in Canada I'll say that for sure. Not becuse of service only but becuse online buying in Canada is so full of issues. Exchange rate, shipping, duty, warranty transfer issues customs the list goes on and on. I would think that B&M stores in the US would be having a much more difficult time. After all if you can buy an XYZ receiver that you have heard somewhere for 1/2 the cost of B&M you can probaly afford $100 to pay someone to set it up properly and still come out ahead.

We have 3 dealers here that I consider above Mass Market. They all have people who are more knowledgable than the average Futureshop dufus.

I have shopped and bought at all 3. The main Place I have been dealing with Laser Home theatre here in Nova Scotia is outstanding IMO. They do NOT have the very cheapest price around. They don't don't rip people off but you might save a few bucks here or there on some stuff. The reason they are so good and that I'd never pass on them for online (Unless of course there was a piece of gear I had to have but could only afford at 1/2 price online) is the experience. I have a modest system and they do a large business in custom installs that cost more than my house. But I spent hours listening to speakers with no pressure only to buy another brand. Yet when I came in months later to look at something else they rembered me and treated me just as well as someone who bought from them.

I will often drop buy just to look around and as long as the place isn't swamped a qestion of "what cool new stuff is in" is always greeted by a big grin and a demo of some type of awesome 10 K projector or something I can't afford but is super cool. When you do by a TV or something from them setup is included at no extra charge.

most of all I've NEVER been oversold.

 

[Bill Polley]

Yup, I've had bad experiences lately. Twenty years ago the same places were great...now, not so. I was criticized for lumping all B&Ms together. Well, the only ones in my area are that way, and the next nearest areas treated me just as poorly. One is an exception. Every B&M within 100 miles in any direction is what I call a rule. The original poster hit it right on the head when he said he didn't mean to flame all B&Ms, but the ones he went to only gave the time of day to people that look wealthier or are looking to spend huge sums of money. I CAN afford a lot of these products, don't neccessarily look or act like I have the funds, and definitely won't put up with a condescending ass who considers me to be a lesser customer because I walk in after work dusty, possibly a bit dirty, and definitely a bit unkept. Work in the sun on a 90 degree day, or in the rain, or on a below zero day and see what half of these clowns treat YOU like!

 

[David Judah]

Markups are high

I'm suprised that someone who drew up a business plan for an A/V store would say this. With the exception of boutique stuff and accessories(like cable)A/V margins are anything but high. Go into the clothing or jewelry business if you want high markup.

I'm with Jeff on this one. There are two sides to every coin. There still are good stores out there with knowledgable salepeople, but alot have them have been pushed out by the WalMarts of the electronics world: Best Buy and Circuit City. Low prices on lower quality gear and lower quality service seem to be the successful business model as dictated by the consumers, so people shouldn't bitch about the lack of knowledge or service in those places. It's that way by design.

There are still some good specialty stores, and you'd be suprised, Jonty, the good salesmen(by that I mean ones who aren't just after the quick buck and who get repeat business and referrals because of their good customer service)make a very good living, even more than some professionals.

It also amazes me that some will do homework on one product, then go into an A/V store and expect the salesman, who has to have a working knowledge of 400-500 products of a variety of different types(audio, TVs, DVDs, camcorders etc...), to know all of the ins and outs of that one product. Retail sales are about features and benefits, not engineering discussions. Leave that to the manufacturers technical support department.

If everyone had to work as a salesman or waiter for one day, there would be a greater respect for what these people do. Sure there alot of bad ones out there, but there are also some very good ones too. If you find a good one, then support them, because if you don't, the only choice you're going to have at B&M stores is the low quality, low service, low knowledge business model I mentioned earlier.

DJ