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Bowers CM5 or Klipsch? Other? Size of Rec room>

Discussion in 'Beginners, General Questions' started by Jcj02, Jun 21, 2018.

?

Which speakers to start off?

  1. B&W CM5 S2

    0 vote(s)
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  2. Klipsch 280fa

    0 vote(s)
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  3. Other

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  4. Definitive Tech bp9040st

    0 vote(s)
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  1. Message #1 of 33 Jun 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
    Jcj02

    Jcj02 Extra

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    Budget (not including receiver)
    $2500 for 2 towers and center love to save
    Willing to piece together tho also

    Room is
    25x23 (10’ ceilings)

    Receiver
    Denon x4300h

    TV
    70” curved

    Main Uses / Plans
    Will be incorporating Dolby Atmos
    3D
    VR Ovulus TV
    Lots of Gaming
    Lots of Movies
    Some music
    Open to 7.2 +

    Looks like I will piece things together
    Want floor standing speakers
    Open to suggestions for entire setup

    First pieces planning to purchase are:
    Center and floorstanding speakers
    Looking at the Bowers CM5 S2 as they are very cheap / available at the moment ($800 for a pair) otherwise will hold for the Klipsch 280fa’s? Any input very welcome

    Will want to use Atmos downfiring or upfiring speakers. Open to recommendation for rest of setup if you suggest what I’m looking at

    Thanks in advance, ask any questions
    Sorry for the rush tonight on typing
     
  2. JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    I'm not sure you could find two more dissimilar speakers to choose from, so I'm not sure what to recommend. B&W and Klipsch sound nothing alike. I'd definitely go with the B&W between those two. You know they're not floor standing speakers, which you listed as a requirement. You might look at SVS Primes or the ELAC Debut 2.0 line is really gaining a lot of attention. The Debut F6.2 would fit along with B6.2s for surround.
     
  3. Jcj02

    Jcj02 Extra

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    Understood. At the price I was just curious. I don’t know much about them. I’m going to a show from as we don’t have one close so never heard either. I just knew I loved B&W speakers in the jaguars lol.

    Maybe this will help. Which are better suited for home theatre purposes or are both and just more personal preference?
     
  4. Dave Moritz

    Dave Moritz Lead Actor
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    Let me start off with speakers because they are one of the most important parts of your system in regards to sound. This is one of the areas if you love sound you do not want to buy speakers that are to cheap. So if you are looking at a certain budget for the entire room you may want to try and budget more depending on the sound you want and how loud you like to listen to it. Speakers really are the voice of your home theater! Try to audition as many speakers as you can at reputable retailer! What kind of bass are you looking for? Your room is a decent size room and I also like to think of speakers as air pumps, more so in the bass department. Deep bass literally is accomplished by moving air in the room! But the bigger the room the bigger the speaker needs to be to fill that room to the volume you want! It is also important to have efficient speakers because if you do not you will need more power to make them just as loud!

    You mentioned Bowers and Klipsch so I am assuming you have heard both of these brands in person. But again listen to as many as you can because IMHO sound can be very subjective and you want to be happy with the choice in speakers many years down the road. One of the things you can do to keep speaker clutter down is to use inwall speakers for your surround channels and atmos speakers in which I would make sure your furniture layout is locked in IMHO.

    That being said I will suggest some speaker brands to check out:
    1. Brands available online and at retail stores
    Klipsch
    Bowers & Wilkens (I do like Bowers & Wilkens a lot, I do own a B&W HTM 61 S2 center channel and am planning on upgrading my surrounds to Bowers & Wilkens bookshelf speakers.
    Polk
    Boston
    JBL
    SVS
    Pioneer by Andrew Jones
    ELAC by Andrew Jones

    If you have boiled your choices down to Klipsch and B&W just spend more time listening to them and making sure the receiver you choose will properly drive them to the volume you want. IMHO with that size room stay away from really small speakers!

    I see you listed a Denon x4300h so I am assuming that is the receiver you have. If for some reason you do not yet have a receiver you will want to also consider a Marantz SR-6012 or a Yamaha RX-A2080. You may want to buy your speakers first then match the power output of the receiver to the speakers. One mistake people make is under driving there speakers and you can actually damage your speakers by under powering them. And by that I mean if your amplifier runs out of usable power and goes into clipping and distortion you can actually damage or even fry your speaker before slightly over powering them. If I had a large room and projection screen I would not be running the B&W speaker for center and would most likely not run them for surround even thought they would still do a good job. I would more likely run pro JBL speakers and 18" EV or pro JBL suwoofers with external amplifiers. It depends on your room and how loud you want to get it. And if you want to upgrade from a receiver you could always go with a preamp processor and power amp or multiple power amplifiers. Later you you can always update the preamp processor and keep the same amplifiers.

    I recommend not using up firing speakers as IMHO they do not accomplish what a down firing speaker can! Bouncing sound of the ceiling will deaden the sound and sound reflecting of surfaces has a tendency to distort the sound. IMHO I would stay away from the Atmos speakers where they fire the sound up and reflect it down.

    How many sofa's, chairs / listening positions do you have? IMHO you could get away with 5.1/5.1 but I would go 7.1 or 7.2. You will need to spend even more time to position the extra sub if you go with 2 and I would even spend time moving a single around the room to get the best bass out of your sub! But since you have said you have interest in Atmos/X then your more likely looking at a 7.1.2 or 7.2.2 if you have one sofa/seating position. If you have more than one sofa and want to step up then your looking at a 7.1.4 or 7.2.4. Make sure your receiver has the ability to power all your speakers because if not then your looking at re configuring the internal amplifiers to a 5.1 system in order to have your 4 Atmos speakers powered. The only alternative will be to keep the receiver in a 7.1 configuration and get a small external amplifier to power the two Atmos speakers.

    IMG_9565a.
    IMG_0505a.
    IMG_5563a.
    IMG_5562.JPG

    I do plan on correcting how my surrounds are set up but at the time that window in the picture was getting in the way so that was my solution and currently I do not have Atmos or DTS-X capability.


    There are my future surrounds that will have to sit on speaker stands! And 4 of these flush mounted into the ceiling for Atmos!
    20160624_110245a.

    I may also have to move into an apartment so these may end up replacing my Altec Lancing A-7's pictured above
    20160624_110238a.


    I hope this gives you the information you needed, gives you ideas and that it helps you make the decisions you need to make to accomplish your home theater build.
     
  5. Jcj02

    Jcj02 Extra

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    Wow
    Thank you very much for taking the time
    I am trying to find more showrooms. Closest one to me is one hour away
    The Denon 4300 was a gift so I plan to use it. (Was an awesome gift lol but for that reason, I have it before my speakers)
    I’m planning out my furniture and seating now as well. Tomorrow I am measuring space for my tv / and then situating where I believe seats will be. Yes downfiring is my main goal. Going to process some of this and will keep you posted. Again, thank you for the details and taking that time for me.
     
  6. Jcj02

    Jcj02 Extra

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    Was told to check out the Klipsch r7-iii
    The 280’s though were not my favorite from a couple showrooms today

    Heard several setups all from my model receiver here’s the details

    Update- looks like my budget will be pushed to $2500 for the towers/center. Add as I want to or may buy at once. Unsure

    Listened to some stuff today


    Surprised anyhow

    In order and alternates to what I list. But not in same room size as what I have


    Did not even hear my front runner with sub/surrounds

    1. Definitive Tech 9040st - Atmos module on top

    With Bowers/Wilkins HTM61-S2 center (listened to the others but didn’t like as much, would this matter?)

    Heard to DT center that goes with this, it has a powered sub built in (odd to me but I’m not a pro) it sounded very good. However, the B&W is just so crisp and clean sounding to me. Good/bad idea for mix and why?


    2. Revel F36 Towers

    Revel C25 Center

    S16 Surround

    B10 Sub


    3. Klipsch 280F towers

    450C center

    250S surround

    R112SW sub


    Thoughts or any suggestions now ?
     
  7. JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    Don't mix if you don't have to, and you don't. Especially don't mix the front. Decide which collection you like and use those.

    BTW, that doens't apply to subs. You are almost always better off getting a sub from a sub company.
     
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  8. Jcj02

    Jcj02 Extra

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    Familiar with the Revel B10 Sub?
    Have any suggestions on top 2/3 sub companies?
    I’ll be looking into those soon enough.
     
  9. JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    I'm not familiar with that sub, but after looking it up, I expect that for $1.5K you can get something that would put it to shame.

    Sub companies to look into are PowerSound, HSU, SVS, Rythmik, for examples.
     
  10. Jcj02

    Jcj02 Extra

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    I listened to it today and the company has them for 1/2 off msrp
    I’ll check into them
    Thanks!
     
  11. JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    That's probably because $1,500 for a single driver, 10" sub is probably 4x over priced. Half price is still over priced.
     
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  12. Edwin-S

    Edwin-S Lead Actor
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    I'm using B&W CM9s for fronts, CM8s for sides and KEF UniQs at the back.

    The CM series sound pretty good. I was amazed at how good KEF UniQs sound considering they are a bookshelf type with a single driver.

    If those speakers had been out when I was buying new speakers, I probably would gone with those all around.

    I have listened to Klipsch speakers but I found them too bright and ear fatiguing after awhile. I'm definitely not a fan of horn tweeters which was the flagship feature of that brand.
     
  13. Message #13 of 33 Jun 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
    JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    Actually, it's two coincident drivers. So, they're two way speakers, just that they're in a single driver housing. It's a design concept Andrew Jones champions, and Jim Thiel before him.
     
  14. Jcj02

    Jcj02 Extra

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    Ok curious on your thoughts

    My price point would reach probably $13/1500 on subs

    I could swing part of that now but don’t have to.
    Should I wait to get 1 large, $1500 sub or go with 2x$6/700 ? The space again is ~4300cf.
    Thanks
     
  15. JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    A lot of people seem to be obsessed with dual subs these days, probably because so many receivers have connections for two subs. Still, my opinion is that a single $1,400 sub will virtually always out perform two $700 ones. Two identical subs will have 3dB greater output than one will, but that's all you gain. A single $1,400 sub will typically have an even greater increase in total output, plus lower extension, so it's better in virtually every way. It's also simpler to place one sub than two, and sub placement is a challenge.
     
  16. Jcj02

    Jcj02 Extra

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    Just seems in theory with that much air to move/fill, 2 units filling air from opposing sides of a large room would filll quicker? Honestly that was my only thought process and the fact I could buy one now, add one later. Then again, maybe it won’t take a $1400 sub. Hoping to get that down too lol but I don’t want to compromise just because I’m impatient
     
  17. JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    Double the sub price means larger driver, more power, greater linear travel capacity of the driver, and often dual drivers rather than single. So, let's say the double of price means going from a single 12" driver to dual 15" with greater linear travel and more power. You end up with the ability to move significantly more air than just adding another lesser sub. Plus, dual driver subs tend to emphasize each other for double the increase, meaning it's like going from one to four drivers, not just one to two.

    Plus, two units playing from opposite sides of the room have a high risk of actually cancelling each other out, since bass waves are so long. I don't know if you've ever seen waves on a lake hitting each other from opposite directions and cancelling each other out. Same basic principle. Interactions between a room and a sub are extremely complex. Make it two subs and it's basically four times as complex. You get spots where they amplify each other and others where they cancel each other out.
     
  18. Message #18 of 33 Jun 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
    JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    The price level where you start getting into really good subs is about $900-$1,000. Look at the 15" models from Power Sound and HSU. With your room size though, I'd probably lean toward the PSA S3000i. A little over your budget, but you can just put your mind at rest about subs for a long time.

    OOps, PSA has new models, the S3000i is now the S3010.
     
  19. Jcj02

    Jcj02 Extra

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    Well that makes a ton of sense, the lake analogy. Point taken. Yep I saw one I was looking into where it was dual drivers, and said 4x power of one previous model. Thanks again for the response.
     
  20. Dave Moritz

    Dave Moritz Lead Actor
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    I would try and stay away from mixing brands of speakers with the exception of the subwoofer. You want to stick with the same brand and line if you can but mixing brands can lead to a mixing of the voice from speaker to speaker which would be the timber of the speaker. Like someone else mentioned definitely do not mix speakers across the front channels. No problem with your receiver and Denon makes nice receivers so I would match your power to what ever speakers you get since you have already locked down your receiver. B&W and Klipsch are both good for home theater and plenty of people use both but they are different animals as Klipsch uses horn tweeters and B&W does not. That being said and because the actual sound from both differ I would make sure you also look into SVS and especially ELAC by Andrew Jones who is a well known speaker designer and the ELAC's are well designed and are not real expensive a great bargain for what your getting. If you live to far from retailers try to listen to as much as possible and make up reading as much as possible. Try to stay away from consumer reviews and take them with a grain of salt like reviews from Walmart and Best Buy or even Crutchfield. Have you listened to Klipsch speakers before? The highs can be on the bright side compared to other speakers as can horn tweeters be in general. Also after running Audyssey go back in and set your speakers to small! Unless you have large bass drivers that can handle deep bass on your left and right IMHO set them to small.

    As far as your tv I would suggest making sure it does both HDR & Dolby Vision and make sure your 4K blu-ray player is compatible as well. I have a Samsung which is not that bad and has worked out well. But I would look at the Sony and Panasonic player but the Oppo is the best but just be warned that Oppo is shutting down if they have not stopped production already. Oppo is also alot more expensive than everything else but this is why I would stick with checking out the Sony or Panasonic player.

    I would at minimum if you want good solid sub in your home theater I would go with at least a 12" sub maybe a 15" sub. I wouldn't go below a 12 and after living with the subwoofer for at least 6 months and after hearing a decent amount of content with good low frequency content reevaluate if the one subwoofer is enough and consider at that point if you need to add a second as that can make a big difference and a better performance in your room. If your receiver doesn't have dual rca outputs for two subs don't worry you can get a rca splitter to hook up dual subs later. Keep in mind to take any of these videos with a grain of salt. And one thing never take the audio presentation as a representation of what the speakers sound like because it will never sound like the way it did in the room where the video was shot. At the end of the day you are hearing your speakers not the speakers on the other end!

    Just wondering if your a critical listener like I am? If yes then your choice in speakers will be critical!











    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvLJCHvqi1U&t=174s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DLlj23QiYw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMBdm5xjJVI

    I hope this helps you achieve your goals! I like big full sound and it is my opinion that to get that kind of room filling sound nothing beats larger speakers! You do not need them as big as I have them but I also have another reason for hanging onto my speakers and that is they belonged to my father and the sound is incredible.

    IMG_9565a.

    Hopefully in the near future these Altec A-7's will get a high gloss black lacquer finish or back to the original grey. If I end up moving and can not keep these then I will be looking at B&W, Klipsch, SVS or another tower speaker. But unless I change my mind about the center channel I have I will most likely stick with moving to all B&W's. My other choice is to pair Klipsch to the Altecs or just flat out change everything to Klipsch or something else.
     

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