Black Panther (2018) (1 Viewer)

[John Dirk]

That's really interesting to me, and I'd totally be on board with that. Because it makes it about the story, and not about which CGI monster can punch the other CGI monster harder.

I think the Marvel movies have generally been pretty okay about this. Even when they do raise the stakes a little, they can do it in a way that doesn't have to feel repetitive. Technically, the entire world was at stake in Doctor Strange, but it felt like a more personal story, and the movie doesn't dwell on scenes of mass destruction. The way Strange defeated the villain was clever and enjoyable.

On the other hand, you look at something like Thor: The Dark World (admittedly the Marvel movie that gets the most crap from people), and the entire world is threatened with destruction by a villain who wants to end all existence and is perfectly content to no longer exist. Not only does that make for a dull villain (no reasoning with someone like that), but the stakes got so huge that it became unbelievable that no one called the Avengers in.
And yet, no one does. Certainly the stakes Thor was against in Dark World were higher than the stakes that brought the Avengers together at the beginning of Age Of Ultron - in that movie, they get together because there's an evil stick that can't be left in the wrong hands. (Oversimplification, I know.) If an evil stick was worth bringing the whole team together, surely the actual destruction of the planet as threatened in The Dark World would pass that threshold. Getting back to the example of Ant-Man, another reason to love that movie: Paul Rudd knows he's in over his head, so he suggests calling the Avengers. Michael Douglas is able to use a funny one-liner to dismiss that suggestion, so the movie can address the existence of the Avengers without needing to use them.

Josh - You're obviously a smart guy but I'm concerned you may be watching these movies sober. Just kidding but I was never into the original comics so I just love the cinematic and technical excellence I see in pretty much all Marvel titles, especially compared to the DC releases. Can't wait for this latest installment.

 

[Sean Bryan]

To clarify, the organized “movement” that says they want to tank the Rotten Tomatoes audience score for Black Panther aren’t pathetic racist assholes. They are pathetic butthurt asshole DC fans that want to ding Marvel.

If RT’s “audience score” has been reduced to this kind of tool, it no longer has any purpose or relevance and needs to go away. Aggregate the professional critics’ Fresh/Rotten reviews, post the CinemaScore, and leave it at that.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I feel bad for the people who are looking forward to Black Panther, end up not liking it for whatever reason and then get lumped in with the racists.

Oh, absolutely. It's totally legitimate to dislike a film for artistic reasons if you see it and don't like it. However, I think there is some likely racism at work with at least some people who are participating in a preemptive effort to tank the RT score of a movie starring primarily black actors which no one involved in said effort has actually seen yet. That's what I was trying to express there, nothing more.

 

[TravisR]

If RT’s “audience score” has been reduced to this kind of tool, it no longer has any purpose or relevance and needs to go away.

I didn't even know there was an audience score on RT until The Last Jedi and that one, at best, didn't represent anything more than the opinion of the people who voted or, at worst (and most likely), was abused by angry/disappointed fans. Either way, RT's audience score is flawed and should be ignored.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Variety is now projecting a $150 million-range opening for Black Panther, so the good news is any movement against it, whether for racial or butthurt-fan reasons, doesn't seem like it will have much impact.

http://variety.com/2018/film/box-of...-annihilation-box-office-openings-1202684191/

 

[Bryan^H]

I didn't even know there was an audience score on RT until The Last Jedi and that one, at best, didn't represent anything more than the opinion of the people who voted or, at worst (and most likely), was abused by angry/disappointed fans. Either way, RT's audience score is flawed and should be ignored.

I think RT should go away completely. Anyone that makes their decision to watch a movie from RT has a problem in my opinion. If a movie looks interesting to you but gets a low "critics score" so you skip it, you really have no business watching movies in the first place.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I feel bad for the people who are looking forward to Black Panther, end up not liking it for whatever reason and then get lumped in with the racists.

Agreed.

Kind of like how the people who didn't like the recent remake of Ghostbusters were labeled sexist.

That's also unfortunate. While there were certainly people who decided not to like in advance for sexist reasons, that doesn't cover everyone. I thought the premise was sound, the cast was exciting, but I was severely underwhelmed by the script and direction. The female-led cast was one of the film's strongest assets, I felt, but yeah, not necessarily an easy opinion to express at the time.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

I think RT should go away completely. Anyone that makes their decision to watch a movie from RT has a problem in my opinion. If a movie looks interesting to you but gets a low "critics score" so you skip it, you really have no business watching movies in the first place.

If I'm really interested in a movie, I'll see it even if it's very rotten. And I'm not interested in a movie, I won't see it even if the critic's score is stellar. Where Rotten Tomatoes is useful to me is when I'm on the fence about a movie. If the movie's really well-reviewed, that can tip me toward seeing it. And if the critics hate it, that can tip me toward skipping it.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I like Rotten Tomatoes for after the movie - sometimes I enjoy reading reviews to see how the critics compare to what I thought, and it can be useful to look up their site just to have all the links in one place. But that's about the extent of my RT usage.

 

[Jake Lipson]

If something is extremely rotten, it may sway me away from it. If something is mildly rotten and I wanted to see it, I'll usually still see it. But I always try to look at reviews themselves instead of just the score. The score is a useful reference and I'm glad it's there, but it's not the only thing RT is useful for. Having all the reviews in one spot and being able to compare them without having to actually navigate to all the different websites and look them up one at a time is very useful. Where RT can become a problem is if people are just looking at the score and dismissing the rest of the content that led to it getting the score.

 

[TJPC]

On the other hand, I find sometimes the reviews are extatic and when we see the movie we think it is total crap. This happened with “Baby Driver” “Logan” and the last “Mad Max” flick. We need “Rotten Tomatoes For Old Crocks”.

 

[dpippel]

I think RT should go away completely. Anyone that makes their decision to watch a movie from RT has a problem in my opinion. If a movie looks interesting to you but gets a low "critics score" so you skip it, you really have no business watching movies in the first place.

RT is a tool like any other. If it's used correctly then it's not a problem. The issue is the widespread lack of thinking objectively, critically, and independently these days. A lot of people just want things spoon-fed to them. If RT went away completely it wouldn't change that fact one iota.

 

[dpippel]

On the other hand, I find sometimes the reviews are extatic and when we see the movie we think it is total crap. This happened with “Baby Driver” “Logan” and the last “Mad Max” flick. We need “Rotten Tomatoes For Old Crocks”.

Three fantastic films if you ask me, and I'm 60. Please don't presume to lump me in with the "Old Crocks"!!

 

[TJPC]

My wife hates violence and averts her eyes rather expertly to avoid it. She probably only saw about 1/2 of these movies. I also find the glorification of violence and ugliness rather disturbing in modern movies. Why have we gone so far to “the dark side”? When someone is shot and they fall, I know they are dead. Why do we have to see their head explode?

 

[Jeff Cooper]

My wife hates violence and averts her eyes rather expertly to avoid it. She probably only saw about 1/2 of these movies. I also find the glorification of violence and ugliness rather disturbing in modern movies. Why have we gone so far to “the dark side”? When someone is shot and they fall, I know they are dead. Why do we have to see their head explode?

I understand where you're coming from, but I think that speaks more to your personal preferences than to the quality of the movies in question. Any critically acclaimed move out there is not going to be for everyone.

 

[John Dirk]

To clarify, the organized “movement” that says they want to tank the Rotten Tomatoes audience score for Black Panther aren’t pathetic racist assholes. They are pathetic butthurt asshole DC fans that want to ding Marvel.

If RT’s “audience score” has been reduced to this kind of tool, it no longer has any purpose or relevance and needs to go away. Aggregate the professional critics’ Fresh/Rotten reviews, post the CinemaScore, and leave it at that.

First I've heard of this but if it's simply Marvel vs DC angst then why have previous Marvel titles not been targeted? Thor Ragnarok has an 88% audience score, and Captain America Civil War sits at 89%. It's not that important to me as I take all reviews with a grain of salt. I'm just curious regarding the original reference you are attempting to clarify? My apologies if I've missed something along the way.

 

[Sean Bryan]

First I've heard of this but if it's simply Marvel vs DC angst then why have previous Marvel titles not been targeted? Thor Ragnarok has an 88% audience score, and Captain America Civil War sits at 89%. It's not that important to me as I take all reviews with a grain of salt. I'm just curious regarding the original reference you are attempting to clarify? My apologies if I've missed something along the way.

This was the garbage posted on the Facebook page calling for this sabotage:

"Given the massive success of the audience review rigging on the Rotten Tomatoes site for Star Wars: The Last Jedi,” reads the bewildering statement about this group's plans, "and due to the sudden rise in those disgruntled with Disney business practices among other factors especially due to the corporate manipulations which created falsified bad press for the DCEU, I feel that it’s time to strike back at all those under Disney and bring down the house of mouse’s actions for paying off the critics that hurt DC Comics on film and for other parties affected by them."

This was Rotten Tomatoes’ response:

We at Rotten Tomatoes are proud to have become a platform for passionate fans to debate and discuss entertainment and we take that responsibility seriously. While we respect our fans’ diverse opinions, we do not condone hate speech. Our team of security, network and social experts continue to closely monitor our platforms and any users who engage in such activities will be blocked from our site and their comments removed as quickly as possible.

Though this doesn’t seem to be directly addressing what had been proposed. Rotten Tomatoes’ response seems more focused on watching for and removing hate speech from their comments section, which is a good idea regardless, but they don’t speak directly to how they will address organized attempts to knock down a movie’s audience score (like what happend with The Last Jedi and what has been called for by this Facebook page).

Ryan Coogler had this to say when asked about this ridiculousness:

"For me, I'm looking forward to everybody seeing the film," the director diplomatically responded. "I'm really looking forward to sharing the film with audiences regardless of what their political views are...that's kind of where I [stand on that]." As for how important a score like that is, Coogler was quick to point out that a percentage is never going to tell the full story when it comes to quality.

"It can be an oversimplification of what critics are saying about a movie," he added "It's quicker to look at the consensus than it is to read the articles. But I'm a person who definitely respects film criticism and draws on it in the filmmaking process."

It is my understanding that the Facebook page, "Down with Disney's Treatment of Franchises and Its Fanboys." has now been removed. But I never looked at the page directly myself, because... yuck.

Considering the nature of Black Panther, what it means for people of color, and acknowledging that there are unfortunately many hateful racists out there, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some sort of racist slant to whoever (whatever) has tried to organize this. But their public rationale for it was anti-Disney and Marvel.

 

[John Dirk]

This was the garbage posted on the Facebook page calling for this sabotage:




This was Rotten Tomatoes’ response:



Though this doesn’t seem to be directly addressing what had been proposed. Rotten Tomatoes’ response seems more focused on watching for and removing hate speech from their comments section, which is a good idea regardless, but they don’t speak directly to how they will address organized attempts to knock down a movie’s audience score (like what happend with The Last Jedi and what has been called for by this Facebook page).

Ryan Coogler had this to say when asked about this ridiculousness:



It is my understanding that the Facebook page, "Down with Disney's Treatment of Franchises and Its Fanboys." has now been removed. But I never looked at the page directly myself, because... yuck.

Considering the nature of Black Panther, what it means for people of color, and acknowledging that there are unfortunately many hateful racists out there, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some sort of racist slant to whoever (whatever) has tried to organize this. But their public rationale for it was anti-Disney and Marvel.

Thanks for the thorough retrospective, Sean. This is largely why I divorced Facebook and similar sites some time ago. Too much idle gossip and shameless attention-mongering for my taste. I acknowledge it's not all bad but it tipped my "BS-O- Meter" once too many times. I prefer forums such as this one where I can participate in intelligent conversations with informed individuals drawn together by our mutual love of a great hobby.

Returning to the topic at hand though, I would tend to agree with your assessment. I have my opinions and preferences too but I've never felt the need to attack another for disagreeing. There's plenty of room for DC and Marvel in my world.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Considering the nature of Black Panther, what it means for people of color, and acknowledging that there are unfortunately many hateful racists out there, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some sort of racist slant to whoever (whatever) has tried to organize this. But their public rationale for it was anti-Disney and Marvel.

Not that I'd ever be onboard for a such a campaign, but they completely lost me at the part where they alleged that Disney paid reporters to give DC movies negative reviews. That's not an accusation that can be taken seriously.

 

[TravisR]

This was Rotten Tomatoes’ response:



Though this doesn’t seem to be directly addressing what had been proposed. Rotten Tomatoes’ response seems more focused on watching for and removing hate speech from their comments section, which is a good idea regardless, but they don’t speak directly to how they will address organized attempts to knock down a movie’s audience score (like what happend with The Last Jedi and what has been called for by this Facebook page).

Basically, they know they can't stop it so they're going to do nothing. In fairness, there's nothing to do other than get rid of the audience score all together.

RT should kind of be worried about this because every blockbuster now is going to have some crazed segment of the fanbase spite voting against it so no one is going to care about their audience score fairly soon. Does anyone really think that people are going to care when Star Wars: Episode IX gets a 50% audience score? For The Last Jedi, it was a fairly big story but in two years, it'll be standard and unnoticed.