Black bars on my WIDESCREEN TV!?!

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Babek, Jan 18, 2003.

  1. Babek

    Babek Stunt Coordinator

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    Hey
    I have a Toshiba hx81 widescreen hd television accompanied with a progressive scan toshiba DVD player.

    I have always wanted a widescreen simply beause it eliminates those black backs for widescreen movies that come on a normal tv. Now that I have my widescreen tv I've noticed that there still are black bar are the top and bottom. Aren't widescreen movies suppose to fill the screen? Or is it that I have to setup something on my tv.
     
  2. Chris Chang

    Chris Chang Stunt Coordinator

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    2.35:1 movies like LotR still leave small black bars on a widescreen tv, which is 16x9. Movies that are 1.85:1, like Spider-man, will fill the whole screen. Check the faq at the top. I'm sure it's in there.
     
  3. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Studio Mogul

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  4. Mike Hamilton

    Mike Hamilton Stunt Coordinator

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    If you have adjusted your overscan to tighter tolerances, 1.85:1 will not vertically fill the screen. What little there is blank at the top will be minimal, however it will still be present.
    If a particular CRT manufacturer has done a good job with this (rare, I know)you will see a small bit off black.
    I mention this, because fixed pixel sets with proper geometry will exhibit the small bands at the top and bottom.
     
  5. Justin Woodwell

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    It always astonishes me that people spend so much money on something and yet still have no clue as to what they are buying. They want to buy a WIDESCREEN TV to get rid of those "pesky black bars." Kind of makes you laugh, doesn't it?
     
  6. lee.b

    lee.b Stunt Coordinator

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  7. lee.b

    lee.b Stunt Coordinator

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    Justin, for the record, I bought my dvd player just a couple months ago and was stumped over why my picture was so small. I had picked an 2.35:1 film to watch on my 25" tv. I called the local video store to see what I was doing wrong with my settings. No one ever volunteered to me what happens when you go dvd.

    Even until a few weeks ago, after perusing the internet, did I get the complete picture on what you see on different tvs with different video ratios. This includes seeing side bars on a 16:9 widescreen tv.

    It's not that hard of a thing to either get misinformation on (salesman couldn't even answer my questions accurately all the time), or get confused on, at least until you see it spelled out for you visually on a website or elsewhere.

    I know you were just thinking out loud in your post. But, I would have to say...you can't blame people for not asking questions about black bars...if they don't know they are supposed to exist in the first place. Everyone who isn't 'up' on the situation, gets startled the first time they see a dvd.
     
  8. jeff peterson

    jeff peterson Supporting Actor

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    I think Justin's point was that it's important to do your homework BEFORE your purchase.
     
  9. Jack Briggs

    Jack Briggs Executive Producer

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    Again, movies come in several aspect ratios, from a near-square 1.37:1 all the way to some films that are nearly three times as wide as they are tall (Ben-Hur is 2.76:1). Meanwhile, there are only two types of TV screens. Obviously, the two cannot accommodate all film aspect ratios.

    Also, the 1.78:1 (16:9) widescreen ratio was not devised "to get rid of black bars"; it was selected in order to best accommodate the many different film aspect ratios—it was a compromise.

    Read the material linked in Michael's post.
     
  10. Bill Slack

    Bill Slack Supporting Actor

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    1.78 seems more likely to be chosen because 4:3 is exactally 3/4 the number of lines of resolution. So a widescreen enchanced movie can be easily and simply shown by dropping every 4th line from an enchanced title. Most players do a much more intelligent job of it now, but back in ~1997 that's what most players did, and I'm sure is still what some of the cheaper players do.

    Still, something around this ratio is ideal (I think 1.85 would have made more sense if there were no issues of digital scaling involved.)
     
  11. Mike Hamilton

    Mike Hamilton Stunt Coordinator

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    1.78:1 was chosen by the ATSC in 1986 because it was estimated that would be the widest that a CRT could be manufactured. No consideration was given to DVD playback whatsoever.
    Additionally, Hollywood desired that the ratio be as much as 2.1:1, but the NAB balked saying that consumers would not want to watch television in that exaggerated of a ratio.

    1.78:1 is not a film ratio, and as said earlier, it was felt to be the best compromise between film formats and appeasing the television production crowd.
     
  12. RickER

    RickER Producer

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    I just wanted to add...dont watch to much regular TV (with bars on each side of the picture) on your wide screen...or you will get burn in on that expensive set on each side of the screen. Rotate your viewing habits.
     
  13. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Studio Mogul

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  14. BrettisMckinney

    BrettisMckinney Second Unit

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    Hey, great link! One thing though, you'd have to change the setup of your dvd player wouldnt you?..for WS that is. I noticed mine has three settings 4:3, 4:3 letterboxed and 16:9. IF you didnt have 16:9 selected it would mess up the ratios on the tv wouldnt it? I thought of this as when i was testing some tv's, i put toy story 2 in, which should fill up the screen, and on some it did and on some it didnt..the tv's wide settings were all the same too. SO then i figured the dvd had wrong settings
     
  15. RickER

    RickER Producer

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    Thanks Michael,
    I had not read the link...i never really had worried about burn in on my Sony 36" XB...but i had thought about the squeeze mode some. It was a good link to read just for fun. I didnt know it was a topic that had been "burned" to death on here...still i enjoy reading about these things, guess thats why i come here. LOL Rick
     
  16. greg jones

    greg jones Stunt Coordinator

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    It never ceases to amaze and shock me on the amount of under/uneducated salespeople there are in the world who push HDTV units. Just last week I was in Sears looking at HDTV OTA antennas and overheard a salesperson explaining that "if you want the black bars gone when watching a movie, then you definitely need to go with an HDTV." I could see this statement being true if they were talking about watching 1080i on a regular set vs. an HDTV 16:9 set. But to give such a blanket statement regarding movies in general is absolutely ridiculous!

    I blame the stores that sell HDTV units more for the misconception by the general public about eliminating black bars more than the consumer's lack of knowledge on the subject. If store owners/managers would take just a few minutes out of their schedule to educate the clerks about this issue, there would be considerably fewer angry customers who felt like they were misled when they watch LotR and see black bars on their new $2000+ TV.

    Sorry, now I'm off my soapbox.
     
  17. Qui-Gon John

    Qui-Gon John Producer

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    Actually, the black bars are a concern now for me. I have a 58" 16x9 Pioneer RPTV, just over 2 years old. Many 2.35:1 anamorphic movies I would watch in CINEMA-WIDE MODE. This stretched the image a slight bit and left very thin black bars at the top and bottom, but did not cut off any picture on the sides, (I tested this).

    Now I notice when I have a picture filling the entire screen, that there is a slight difference to the picture in this same thin area. Luckily I did not watch many movies in FULL MODE, or the black bar area would have been even larger and this problem now more pronounced. I think I will start watching, as much as possible, all sources so the entire screen has picture. 2.35:1 anamorphic, this means ZOOM MODE. 1.78:1 anamorphic is OK in FULL MODE. Of course if I watch any non-anamorphic movies I will have black bars, but I do watch a lot less of this.

    I was surprised I had this effect happen as I did calibrate it with Avia and info from Keohi web-site, shortly after I got it. I wonder if there is anyway to correct this? Maybe a special DVD with picture content on the edges only and black in the middle, which you could let run for certain periods of the day, etc. Or maybe filled screen viewing will eventually even this out over time.
     
  18. greg jones

    greg jones Stunt Coordinator

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    Sounds to me like you're a victim of screen burn-in. From what I know, there are no cures to your ill. Well, actually there is a cure...replace all your CRT guns (an expensive and unnesssary procedure).

    That, unfortunately is another side effect of watching scope (2.35:1) movies on a 1.78:1 RPTV. Granted, if the salesperson that sold you the unit would have told you of the potential burn-in problems, you might not have made your purchase. But even if you did, you would have at least been an informed consumer and known the risks, as opposed to finding this all out after the damage has been done.
     
  19. Michael Mathius

    Michael Mathius Supporting Actor

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    I know front projectors are not for everyone, but I recently took the dive and got a Sony HS10 front projector. I still have my Sony KP53HS10 rear projector for normal tv veiwing but when I want to get lost in a movie, it's the fp for me.
    I would suggest that you research and audition the pros and cons of a fp. You may be suprise at the picture quality you can get with a fp in your home today. Plus you will never have to think about screen burn in. Also, with my setup I never have the dreaded black bars that everyone keeps talking about[​IMG].
    Michael
     
  20. greg jones

    greg jones Stunt Coordinator

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    I would have to second Michael's comment about going with a FPTV. While you can't get quite as good of a picture with a digital projector compared to a CRT-based RPTV, one would be quite surprised to see just how close the two are.

    When someone is contemplating whether to buy a RPTV or a projector, I always ask them about what room they are planning on putting the unit in. If it's fairly small and they can control ambient light, then I always recommend them going for a projector. Why? When most people decide to get a new TV, they want the biggest screen they can get for the money. Not necessarily the biggest screen that their room can accommodate. So, what's the point of having a 65" RPTV in a 10' room? By the time you take into consideration the depth of the TV and subtract this from the room size, then factor in the location of your seating, you end up setting right up on the set. And to make matters worse, you can't adjust the screen size to match your seating distance.

    Now, with a front projection system, you get a lot more for your money. First, you don't have to worry about how much space is taken up inside the room by your unit...you simply mount it on the ceiling at the back of the room and you're done. Plus, you have the ability to tailor your screen size to accommodate your room size. If the screen seems too big to be comfortable, reduce the size a bit. When you get the size you want, measure and make your own DIY screen for less than $30 until you can afford a high-quality screen from Dalite or Stewart. And most decent quality digital projectors on the market are cheaper than a RPTV set and nearly rival that of many HDTV sets on the market.

    As you can see, I could go on and on about the benefits of going with a projector. But it's all in the eyes of the beholder. If you don't like the looks of a projected image, go with what you feel comfortable with.
     

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