Bi Wire - Denon 3803

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Kevin*Harley, Mar 3, 2003.

  1. Kevin*Harley

    Kevin*Harley Stunt Coordinator

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    I pick up the last piece of my system (fronts) tomorrow and need to buy wires.
    I have the Denon 3803, Monitor Audio Silver s8's & MA LCR.

    If I bi wire, will I be able to hear a difference with the equipment I have?

    I'm also looking for recommendations for the best way to hook up my sub (Velodyne HGS-15).

    Thanks in advance
     
  2. Brian Fellmeth

    Brian Fellmeth Supporting Actor

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    I don't think you will hear any difference biwiring your gear because I believe nobody really hears any difference with any gear. But thats just me. Many people swear by it with rigs like yours.

    Best way to hook up sub is with a good quality RCA cable. A "subwoofer" cable is marketing nonsense. A Y at the sub end to use both input jacks is pointless.
     
  3. Willem Vos

    Willem Vos Stunt Coordinator

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    Try the bi-wiring, if it sounds better, keep it that way.

    Some people (including me) just *feel* better having their speakers hooked up in the best possible way. This makes for a perfectly good reason to bi-wire. Even if most of us can't hear the difference.
     
  4. Christopher M

    Christopher M Stunt Coordinator

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    How would you bi-wire with this receiver? I just looked at the back of it, and I only see 1 set of posts per speaker.

    Am I just missing something?

    Murdock
     
  5. Chuck Bogie

    Chuck Bogie Second Unit

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    Yeah, could someone explain bi-wiring using short words so that I can understand easily?
     
  6. James Edward

    James Edward Supporting Actor

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    Picture 4 wires- 2 pos, 2 neg

    At the receiver end, the 2 pos are jammed into one pos connector, and the 2 neg are jammed into one neg connector. Each of those is then inserted into its respective positive and negative slot on the receiver.

    On the speaker end, you take ONE positive and ONE negative wire and insert it into the connector marked 'woofer' or low, and the other positive and negative pair are connected to the 'tweeter' or high slot.

    Why this works, I don't know. But I do have all my speakers bi-wired. Someone will probably come along with a drawing to better illustrate this.

    PS- Most speakers that are capable of being bi-wired have a jumper of some sort between the two sets of terminals. Make sure you remove this jumper if you bi-wire.
     
  7. Christopher M

    Christopher M Stunt Coordinator

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  8. KendallT

    KendallT Agent

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    You could use a stackable set of banana plugs to get all 4 wires into the two outputs at the reciever end.

    Or, you could do like I do with my 3803, Snell Type-D's and bare-ended 10Ga Monster Cable:

    Remove enough of the insulation to wrap one of the negative leads around the other (copper to copper) tapering it near the end. then wrap electrical tape leaving the last 1/2 to 3/4 inch exposed. No problem inserting that into the terminals on the back of the 3803.

    As the previous post noted: make sure you remove the connector between the woofer terminals and the tweeter terminals at the speaker end. If you don't have that set-up you can't bi-wire.

    Ken
     
  9. Christopher M

    Christopher M Stunt Coordinator

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    OK, so you are bi-wiring using the one set of ouputs. How does this offer an improvement? To me, it seems your either splitting the signal at the Amp (bi-wire) or splitting it at the speaker (the little interconnects)
    I guess I don't follow the logic unless you have two sets of posts on the amp.

    Murdock
     
  10. Chuck Bogie

    Chuck Bogie Second Unit

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    What I learned from a link posted above is that the theory is that running a full-frequency to a combo of bass/treble can result in noise depending on cabling - When you split 'em at the amp, you get less noise.
     
  11. Christopher M

    Christopher M Stunt Coordinator

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    But your not splitting the high-lows if you only use on set of posts on the amp. Both runs of cable still get the full range signal. Unless I'm missing something.

    Murdock
     
  12. Willem Vos

    Willem Vos Stunt Coordinator

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    Actually, the theory is that the low frequencies will settle in one run cable run, and the high frequencies will settle in the other, for the most part.

    There is presumably an electrical-phenomenon related to it, but don't ask me what it is, exactly [​IMG].

    I think it went something like this: Since the high and low runs are separated into two "loops", there is demand for highs in one loop, and demand for lows in the other.

    Maybe someone else can comment.
     
  13. Adam.Gonsman

    Adam.Gonsman Stunt Coordinator

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    I personally have never heard a difference in bi-wiring. I have to ask if the difference that some hear is do to a singal run of their cable not being able to carry adequate power so by bi-wiring, you double the effective capacity of the connection.

    Things like bi-wiring though go into a very touchy area where it's often hard to tell if it's snake oil or a real remedy. Some swear by it and will defend it visciously. Others say it's a waste. This is where someone should say "Let the holy war begin".

    Other than the above, I really can't see any benifit from it even from a technical point of view. It should really make no difference whether you split the signal at the receiver or the speaker.

    As for the different frequncies settling in different cables, I'm not sure how this would work. After all, both wires still have to be crossed over and all frequncies either passed to a driver or "absorbed" with some sort of passive resistence. I would think that from the stand point of the cables, both cables would "see" a need for a full signal. The only thing I can see with this is that the high signal wire wouldn't experience the massive power swings needed for the bass driver. So the load would be unequal. This could in theory I guess free the "bass" wire from having to carry any real power and concentrate on the massive power of the bass signal. Likewise, the "treble" wire could not be "muddied" by the massive power in bass signal and stay crisper and cleaner.

    The only problem with this is that your receiver or amp still has non-magical mortal man made wires in it too that run from amp circuit to the binding posts. Wouldn't this be enough to undo any expected benifits of bi-wiring down the line?

    Of course then we get into the discussion about how it's the length of the run that matters. We all know the general rule is the longer the run, the heavier the cable. So maybe those short little runs inside the equipment is ok on one wire but it's those 10 and 20 foot and longer runs from there tothe speakers that need the better wiring. But to me, this sounds like it's still more of an argument for simply increased conductor capacity than anything. Something that would just as easily be remedied by using a heavier gauge singal wiring than a bi-wiring.

    So argue with me, agree with me whatever. Just thought I'd throw some other ideas into the discussion. I think even more than most things in high end audio, there is probably no clean cut yes or no answer here.
     
  14. Mike Up

    Mike Up Second Unit

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    Full range signals will be on both cables. The only difference is related directly to the crossovers. The crossover network going to the high frequency terminals will only allow high frequencies and show a high impedance( resistance to current flow)to the low frequencies. This high impedance is shown in the circuit and less current will flow.

    With the low frequency terminals, higher current will flow being there is no 'added' high impedance to stop the flow of current at those frequencies. With low impedance, high current will flow.

    So in essence, the cable going to the high frequency terminals will carry bass frequencies, but the current flow will be low with those frequencies.

    I don't believe that 'buy' wiring is any improvement. Of course if you believe you hear sonic differences between cables that are of the same gauge, same shielding, and being oxidation free, you may believe you'll hear differences with 'buy' wiring.

    Happy listening.
     
  15. Willem Vos

    Willem Vos Stunt Coordinator

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