Best Sounding Speaker in $3500 range (1 Viewer)

[John A. Casler]

Stacy has the right idea.

How can you beat these for $3500. I think I know the guy who is selling them and it is like selling his kids.

I second the RM40 suggestion. These will sound better (or as good) as many $30,000 speakers. (one 10th the price)

John Casler

 

[Kishu]

RM40s are maahvelous speakers..I own them . The list is $4600 shipped (or if you want the ultimate:$5800 shipped with upgraded cap) but you can get a good discount from VMPS dealers.
If you are leaning towards VMPS let me know. You can read lot more from the VMPS website (also in designer's corner)
Cheers,
Kishore

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Y'all have missed a good one: Magneplanar 3.6s.
Hard to beat the Maggie ribbon tweeter and midrange for accuracy and transparency.

 

[ling_w]

Y'all have missed a good one: Magneplanar 3.6s.

Dude, didn't miss it. I posted it Aug 5. Maggie will never be that fad speaker where everyone wants it now, but jump to the next fad when it comes along.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Dude, didn't miss it. I posted it Aug 5.

Sorry Ling, thanks for the posting.
I think it is worth pointing out that one ideally wants to buy from a very established speaker manufacturer that will be around after a few years.
A lot of "hot" speakers come and go and this is a really challenging retail business. It takes a lot of good management to keep the doors open and keep servicing warranty and non-warranty repairs.
Magnepan is an outstanding company. They once happily replaced, free of charge, an out of warranty ribbon tweeter I had on the MG3As.
The ultimate questions to ask about a new speaker company are the following:
(1) How long have you been in business?
(2) Who is your primary designer?
Of course, Bose and Polk pass these tests on some level, but your ears should eliminate Bose automatically.

 

[Stacy Huff]

I think that Bryan Cheney and VMPS probably pass that test.

 

[ling_w]

Lee,

Besides the primary designer, they have to have a design philosophy that is unchanging (but not static) and not fad of the week. Anyone who zig zags in their design are just someone who is still learning along the way or who doesn't design with core beliefs and devotion. I can't imagine Paul Klipsch starting to design ESL in his lifetime. He is horn from begining to end, even if it isn't my cup of tea. And I can't imagine Nelson Pass having a dedicated following if he went from Supersymmetry class-A to Tripath to tubes.

Magnepan has been dipole/large surface launch & ribbon tweeter for a very very long time. Bose is probably in the same boat, but his philosophy is basically to design junks.

 

[Matt Jesty]

Good post Ling... I think that a lot of credit should be given to those who keep improving on the same basic design goals....

 

[Matt Jesty]

I have heard great DIY projects and I have heard the same drivers in some other persons rendering of the very same project sound not at all as good.....QC differs radically..cabinet construction is a lot more important than people want to believe....

 

[Salvatore Restivo]

I can't imagine Paul Klipsch starting to design ESL in his lifetime.

Forgive the nitpick, but Paul Klipsch passed away on May 5th.

 

[Luis C]

Hands down the Magnepan 3.6R's... I have owned practically every speaker people have mentioned here and the Maggies are the ones I have come back to and will stay with.

I have a 5.1 system set up with the 3.6R's as the mains, the MGMC1's as surrounds and MGCC2 as the center. The system is augmented for video by (2) SVS 20-39CS+ and this is the ultimate setup I have heard below $50,000. Incredibly musical and amazing detail both in audio only and HT listening.

Go audition the 3.6R's before you buy anything!

 

[KeithR]

Danny Richie--

interesting comments, especially since in a lot of mags Dynaudio uses pictures of its crossovers rather than the speaker. they look pretty good to me and of high quality---and the Evidences you mention were speakers of the year, which i would think to be difficult with a cheap, not well done crossover.

if you would care to elaborate i would appreciate it as well as others.

 

[Danny Richie]

Alright, good question Keith!

First of all lets see those pictures they use.

Lots of well known companies picture their networks in their advertisements even though a lot of the components are inexpensive mass produced parts that are completely inferior to other available components that could have been chosen.

One reason they do it is because most people don't know the difference. In fact most of their customers can't tell a cap from a resistor.

If it's big and has lots of components on it then it must be good right?

Well lets compare...

I said "I would be willing to bet you will find higher parts quality used in the crossover components of our $229. a pair A/V-1 kit than you will find in the $30,000. pair of Dynaudio Evidence Temptation."

What is in the Dynaudio?

Let's see those pictures in those ads.

Post them Keith, post em.

 

[Danny Richie]

Hey Jason,

I only used the Dynaudio example because you mentioned it.

Just because a design is available as a DIY design or sold as a kit by no means does that mean it was designed by a hobbyist or is inferior in any way.

Several industry professionals and leaders of the industry have designed speakers that are available as kits for the DIY market.

Furthermore, speakers that are available as kits do not have the budget restrictions and marketing expense concerns that are typical of speakers that available through traditional distribution channels, so higher quality components are more often used.

Custom designed proprietary drivers are not exclusively found in expensive commercial speakers either.

I have had quite a few drivers designed for not only some of our clients but for us as well, and some of those proprietary drivers are made available in our DIY kits.

On a separate note there have been some good recommendations made in this thread.

When comparing commercial models the Maggies are always a good value. They have their limitations but also have good capabilities too.

Also I can't see anyone going wrong with a pair of RM40's for $3,500. either. Those are a good value at that price.

Kishu,

I am often in the Dallas area (and never too far away) and would love to hear a pair of RM40's.

 

[Mal P]

Danny,
From Dynaudio's website for the Evidence, crossover description:
The crossover unit is located behind the mid/high enclosure. Each separate frequency divider network (eight individual networks for each separate driver) are configured on double-thickness, fiberglass reinforced, multi-layer printboards, with extra wide and thick high-purity copper traces. The module is housed in a track aided, removable rack system with slots to allow for ease in access. The crossover module frame structure is made of nonmagnetic cone-block aluminum, offering improved high dissipation and vibration damping. The entire crossover unit allows total flexibility for different options (BI-wired, Tri-wired or active systems) or future upgrades. Speaker terminal connectors are custom-built WBT binding posts along with special spades. The crossover is a most advanced design of shallow slope configurations, utilizing the most innovative and extensively researched and tested phase and impedance control techniques. Components are of the highest quality available: low-loss dielectricum and fast-pulse metal film poly capacitors, large gauge multi-wire litz and flat-copper inductors all hand wound to tolerances less than 1%, and zero compression low inductance, low capacitance wire-wound resistors with high heat stability. The connections from the multi-layer circuit boards are routed through special, high quality wiring to custom-made WBT locking connectors at the end of the assembly. The whole assembly then makes contact to the wiring running to the separate drivers via the uniquely created WBT connectors. These connectors are large, high contact area, pressure locking male and female gold plated, copper connectors to insure an excellent contact with incredibly low internal resistance and untainted sound quality. All internal cabling is made of special high-purity, silver coated, matched crystal OFC.
Cheers,
Mal

 

[Jason_Me]

Just because a design is available as a DIY design or sold as a kit by no means does that mean it was designed by a hobbyist or is inferior in any way.

I in no way meant to come off like that was what I was saying.

These high-end speaker companies aren't just making a $5000 speaker, which ends up costing $30,000 when it gets to you. The money they make isn't all spent on marketing, a lot of it is put back into the speakers. You as a DIY designer don't have any where close to the resources of a giant corp. So your limited to what's out there currently. Most of the advancements in speaker design are trickled down from these mega-bucks flagship speakers.

 

[Michael Ipp]

I am by no means a speaker expert. But I have heard a few. All the way to Dynaudio $80k monstrosity.

I have to say, if I was a millionaire and money was not an object, I would have Joseph Audio. The good thing is, you don't have to be one to afford one. I am saving my pennies as we speak.

 

[Danny Richie]

Thanks Mal,

That was very helpful.

First of all their parts quality looks much better here, in this model, than in their other less expensive models.

Let's compare and see if what I said before holds true.

First let's look at how the network is connected.

Dynaudio says their networks "are configured on double-thickness, fiberglass reinforced, multi-layer printboards, with extra wide and thick high-purity copper traces."

$229. A/V-1 networks are wired point to point.

Even if the printed circuit boards used at the best made they are still not as good as point to point wiring of components.

The wire they mention sounds great! If the network were connected using that wire it would easily be superior to any circuit board used.

This is kind of like the old well know fact that even the best binding post is not as good as running the speaker wire itself straight through the enclosure to the amp without the insertion losses of any binding post. Of coarse this is not really practical.

So I would say the performance edge there goes to the A/V-1.

Now lets look at caps.

Dynaudio says they use "low-loss dielectricum and fast-pulse metal film poly capacitors"

Film and foil caps are the optimal choice. Whose caps or what caps they are using who knows? Some film and foil caps are better than others so it's really hard to say much there. There are some really cheap ones like those sold under the Dayton name, and for 10 times the price there are some really good ones like the Audio Cap Theta.

Film and foil caps can only be made so big. the caps necessary in the Dynaudio Evidence would need to be in the 100uF to 200uF range in order to achieve the crossover points they advertise. Film and foil caps are not made that big.

Audio Cap Thetas are only made as big as a 12uF, and it is over 2.25" long and nearly 1.5" in diameter.

A 100uF version would be bigger than a 12oz Coke can.

I know of no company winding them that large.

So it is likely they are using some other type of cap along with those film and foil. It is most likely that some type of poly caps are used on the larger drivers.

The A/V-1 uses the Axon True caps by-passed with a .1uF film and foil cap.

Who has the edge here? It is hard to say. If the Dynaudio uses good quality film and foil on the tweeters and the mids one might give a slight edge to the dynaudio here.

Lets look at inductors.

Dyaudio uses "large gauge multi-wire litz and flat-copper inductors all hand wound to tolerances less than 1%, and zero compression low inductance".

The A/V-1 uses nothing but Geortz film and foil inductors.

The film and foil are far superior sonically to any other wire wound types, but using film and foil for large values does get very expensive. Plus, they can get away with using the wire wound types on the larger woofers with little performance loss. It's really hard to discern that level of clarity at levels below 300Hz.

Dynaudios decision to use the film and foil in even part of their network was a good one, but it in no way best the A/V-1 that uses nothing but film and foil.

One could say, edge here to the A/V-1, but considering the application that Dynaudio is using the wire wound inductors in I would call it even. BTW the lutz type wire wound inductors is the best type of wire wounds.

Lets look at resistors.

Dynaudio uses "low capacitance wire-wound resistors with high heat stability"

That doesn't say much. They use some ones resistors. I am sure they do not make their own.

The A/V-1 uses the same type resistors.

The best I have ever used are the Mills (also sold as Axon) and those are what I stock and sell.

I see no edge here based on what is available.

Of coarse it was easy for me to make the statement I originally made. We only use the highest quality components in the A/V-1. No matter what any other speaker may have in it there would be little chance of bettering it.

Jason said,

"These high-end speaker companies aren't just making a $5000 speaker, which ends up costing $30,000 when it gets to you."

Oh yea Jason, they sure do.

If it cost $30,000. in a store then the store is likely working off a 40 point margin (at least).

That means they paid about $18,000. for the pair.

This means that including all cost involved in bringing it to the market it may cost the company about $9,000. This is a minimum figure. Many companies look to at least triple their money on low volume models like this or they won't even attempt it. This assumption would mean it cost about $6,000. to produce.

Then much of this is the cost of packing material. A speaker like the one we have been talking about gets shipped in a wooden create not a cardboard box. Plus, shipping cost, duty and other importing taxes, marketing, advertising.... it adds up quick!

Michael,

I will have to completely agree with your statement. Of all the systems I heard at the WCES this last year, only six sounded good to me. One of those was an offering by Joseph Audio. Very good sound and not overly expensive either.

Any more questions?

 

[Michael Ipp]

Danny,

I have a question, not sure if you can answer it. Why would a company such a Joseph Audio, that does make great speakers and not charge an arm and a leg, do better in sales?

Is it because people automatically assume that a speaker that costs $10,000 must be better then a $3000 speaker?

 

[Danny Richie]

Jason,
You said "You as a DIY designer don't have any where close to the resources of a giant corp. So your limited to what's out there currently."
Not so.
I have all the tools and resources that are available. I have no more limitations than any of the larger companies, and I can have anything I need custom built to my specifications.
What I don't have that some of the big boy companies do is money to throw into large advertising campaigns, and if I did I would still likely spend more on R&D instead.
Michael,
Good question. I would bet that if you posted it here:
http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forum...forum.php?f=58
At Joseph Audio's forum at the Harmonic Discord you might get the answer you are looking for. I have meet Jeff and he is a very personable, easy to like guy. If you posted a question there he would respond to it.
Here is one of the problems I was faced with putting our product into some of the high end stores (Our Paradox Series speakers were at one time sold commercially).
Most high end stores try to offer a speaker in each price point. Like $1,000., $2,000., $4,000., $8,000., $10,000 to $12,000. and so on.
Bringing in a speaker that retails at $2,000. a pair that offers more performance than speakers in the $4,000. to $8,000. dollar range is not something those stores get excited about.
Most stores aren't in business to bring you the most for the money. They are in the business to make money.
If a guy goes into a typical store looking to spend about $8,000. on a pair of speakers, they are going to try to sell an $8,000. pair of speakers to that guy.
On a typical $8,000. sale the store will clear about $3,200. to $3,800.
If that same store sold that guy a $2,000. pair that met or exceeded his expectations they will have only made about $900. on that sale.
My product did not fit into the pricing structure already established by most stores. I could have gotten them into more stores if they were just more expensive.
I thought it a better idea to simply offer our product straight to the consumer and deduct from the total what the store would normally mark them up. I would rather the customer get the good deal than the store anyway.