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Best Component < $100 (1m)? (1 Viewer)

Chris Lehner

Agent
Joined
Oct 17, 2002
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43
I'm leaning AQ YIQ-1 or BetterCables Silver Serpent, but in searching this forum for some answers, I'm seeing lots of talk about these "boutique" cables (Rhino, Wicked, etc.). Opinions?

Thanks,
CDL
 

dougW

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Aug 14, 2000
Messages
241
Could it be because that is Mark Rich's standard answer for cables? Just a question, not an answer.

Lex
 

Bob McElfresh

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Joined
May 22, 1999
Messages
5,182
Hi Chris.
First, places like BetterCables, Rhino, Catcables, BlueJeansCables, etc., are not usually called "botique". They are called "Custom".
A botique cable is usually some very thick cable with fancy webbing/tubing on the outside and sells for $$$ per foot. They wont tell you who really makes the coax, and they wont really show you more than vague test-results about the cables frequency response. They DO give you a lot of techno-babble to make you feel stupid.
These "custom" web sites are basically off-shoots of the professional broadcast industry. Techs who learn how simple it is to buy good quality Belden/Canare coax and wire connectors start side-jobs and sell over the internet. Because they dont have the over-head of packaging/training/advertising like Monster, the cables are very good quality and a fairly low price.
BetterCables goes another setp. They found a coax cable that is silver-coated. This is instrumentation-grade coax designed for scientific use. Silver has much better electrical properities over copper, but does not have the flexability. Coating a copper wire with silver gives you a good blend of electrical and physical properties. Then they found a good RCA plug that mates with the coax to create a 75 ohm cable (which is what all video cables must be).
But I digress. :)
So the Silver Serpent cables are still considered "custom". When the price gets near $800 for a 1 meter cable - thats what we call Botique. (And I wont tell you what we call the people who buy them.) :)
 

Mark Rich

Second Unit
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Oct 24, 2001
Messages
457
Doug W,

Yes, that is my standard answer when it comes to video cables.
Affordable, durable, hi-performance, broadcast/production quality/standards without the hype.
 

dougW

Stunt Coordinator
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Aug 14, 2000
Messages
241
Just to clarify Bob, actually CAT uses and has used silver coated 75 ohm coax for 1.5 years for digital and video cables, so it too falls into the latter category.
Thanks for the clarification Mark. :D
Lex
 

Mark Rich

Second Unit
Joined
Oct 24, 2001
Messages
457
Doug W,

Good to hear that there are others out there selling silver plated video/digital cables. Competition is always a good thing for consumers.
 

Chris Lehner

Agent
Joined
Oct 17, 2002
Messages
43
OK, I got:
- 1 OT question about another board member
- 1 correction to my use of the word "boutique" (by the way, I'm not sure I, or all enthusiasts, would agree with your assessment of the word. To me, expensive does not necessarily translate into boutique; esoteric, high-end, what have you. To me, boutique would be a small, specialized maker that caters to a particular clientele, no matter what the price. I wasn't sure how these makers, like Rhino or CAT, which are new to me, were perceived in the Audio community, so I put boutique in the quotations. BTW, I believe it is correctly spelled boutique :D )
- 1 reply to above question for another member
- 1 clarification of the materials for a cable maker
- and 1 praise of said above cable maker
For those of you scoring at home, that is ZERO opinions on cables. C'mon guys, I know someone must have something to say about a good component cable under 100 clams.
CDL
 

Bob McElfresh

Senior HTF Member
Joined
May 22, 1999
Messages
5,182
Well, you did get some recomendations.
But to be blunt:
The BetterCables SilverSerpent cable would be my first choice, followed by the CatCables offerings. Some of our members have projector systems with 100" screens and have found the BetterCables Serpents to be better than much more expensive wires.
The next step down in price (not saying a step down in quality), would be a cable built with Canare coax and Canare plugs. These are the ones I usually recommend.
Mark Rich has used the same Canare plugs but found he liked the cables built with the higher-end Belden coax. Some of the web sites offer these so you should not turn up your nose at them. (Belden is one of the biggest cable makers in the world with over 3,000 different types.)
While Audio Quest cables sell to the audiophile and videophile communities, I have never heard that they perform better than what the custom web sites offer.
If you have not searched, all of these web sites seem to have decent offerings:
www.bettercables.com
Link Removed
www.wickedcables.com
www.rhinocables.com
www.bluejeanscables.com
www.heartlandcables.com
www.ebay.com (search for "Canare" to find Cable Solutions)
(Is this more of the type of response you want?)
 

Chu Gai

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2001
Messages
7,270
those silver coated cables are nothing more than microwave cables but its a bit doubtful you'd be running that kind of power now :)
 

Chris Lehner

Agent
Joined
Oct 17, 2002
Messages
43
Well, I'm usually not one to gamble; I'm a big believer in "you get what you pay for" and there are no shortcuts. If the $50 thing, that nobody has ever heard of, was really as good as the $100 thing...how come no one has heard about the $50 thing. However, I have no problem believing most of these commercial cables are overpriced and that in fact, these guys, with even just a rudimentary knowledge of cabling, can produce cables equal or superior for half (or less) the price.

So now the question becomes which "custom" cable to try. It seems like Belden 1694a cable is the way to go, as opposed to makers that offer Canare cable. I'm sure the silver-plated cable CAT and BetterCables offers is worth the extra dough, but I'm not looking to drop $170 or $120 (2m) right now; not when these other custom makers are around $40-80. So, once again, any opinions now about Wicked, Rhino, et all? I will do a search, but feel free to chime in with your opinions.

Thanks,
CDL
 

Bob McElfresh

Senior HTF Member
Joined
May 22, 1999
Messages
5,182
Budget 10% of the equipment price for cables said:
You obviously dont work or have never worked with an electronic technician or somone who has production studio experience. And you have only been a member of HTF since October so you seem to be quite new to this hobby. With respect, you are the one that has not been/only recently started listening. :)
If you believe you 'get what you pay for', grab your calculator and calculate the raw materials cost for your cable.
Canare V3-5CFB coax: $1.18 per foot
Canare RCAP-C5F RCA plugs: $2.89 ea (you need 6)
These prices are all from www.markertek.com.
So a 12 ft cable has a raw material cost of: $31.50
The Monster Z300CV-4M (the only Monster cable that seems to be rated for HD/Progressive signals as far as I can tell) sells for $230 (from www.goodguys.com)
Let see: you spend $32 for materials, but sell it for $230 - that makes $198 profit. Or 6 times the material cost.
Do you still believe you 'get what you pay for'? Do you see why these cable companies DONT want you to learn about the custom sites? Do you see why these custom sites exist? It's all about the huge profit in cables.
BELDEN VS CANARE: At this level, the difference is small. I would be happy to have either in my rack. This is a Coke vs Pepsi or Petes vs Starbucks type of comparison.
Personally, I'd go with the Canare simply because everyone is using the Canare plugs, why not buy the coax designed to mate with it?
 

Chris Lehner

Agent
Joined
Oct 17, 2002
Messages
43
Bob, I think you missed my point. I said, I believe you get what you pay for, but not in the case of this cable discussion; that I am inclined to believe that cables are over-priced, or that we pay for a lot of overhead and marketing in the price of the cable. Cables are different from equipment, to which I still believe, for the most part, you get what you pay for; a watt is not a watt and no one is going to spin their $100 Technics against a VPI TNT.
As for my being new to this forum, and therefore new to the hobby, well yes and no. I am indeed new to the forum, and yes, it's true...I don't tend to hang with electrical engineer types. You make it sound like that does not qualify me to post or participate in this forum. I'm more of an audio guy, where the cable debate rules and you'd be hard-pressed to convince some guys of your theories. I have to be honest with you: I'm not thin-skinned, but I'm really surprised at your attitude towards a new poster. I'm trying to share my .02, learn what I don't know, maybe share what I do or feel I do and you're basically saying "no, no, no...you're wrong and it must be because you're new and don't know anything about electrical engineering". Even though, as I explained above, I was actually agreeing with your point in regards to cables. And this from an admin; maybe I would be best served at The Spot.
And as for my being the "only" one not in the know, I'm afraid you've fallen victim to your own little microcosm. If you think brand familiarity with Wicked or Rhino among the general population, or even the standard HT population, comes anywhere close to Monster, you're sadly mistaken. You're speaking within the gearhead (and I say that in the best possible way, since I am one:D ) community, which is a VERY small percentage. And don't mistake what I'm saying: 1) I agree that these cables are probably just as good and at a fraction of the price, 2) that I will probably buy a set of said cables, but that 3) I don't think we'll be seeing them at BB, CC, Tweeter or even any high-end dealers in the near future or ever. Or that Monster is losing any sleep over their competition.
I think you have a "holier than thou" attitude over the fact that you may be in the know about something, simply before anyone else or another group. In other words, what if I happen to come across XYZ cable company, and they're making silver-plated cables at half the price of say BC or CAT. Is it then my place to say "what Bob, are you stupid? You don't know about XYZ??" If this is representative of the spirit of HTF, like I said earlier, maybe I'll find the Spot more to my liking.
CDL
 

Bob McElfresh

Senior HTF Member
Joined
May 22, 1999
Messages
5,182
Chris, you are a contridiction wrapped in a conundrum.

Are you really interested in the topic, but resistant to the information? You claim you deserve the slack given to newbies, but announce youre an audio person from Home Theater Spot. You are quick to complain, actually counting slights and then take offense.

Do I need to break out the supply of "Troll Be Gone"?
 

Chu Gai

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2001
Messages
7,270
It's not unknown for prices to be set higher because people perceive a higher price is associated with quality. The following little story was written by Richard Pierce to whom I extend my thanks for the enjoyable read it gave me.
Today's episode: Hey, I only wanted to charge you less!

About 12 years ago I ran what became a very well-respected repair department specializing in state-of-the-art components. I became known as one of the few Revox wizards that not only did great work, but did it in less than 10 years. I had a very impressive array of equipment and documentation, equalled by almost no other repair agency, and exceeding most manufacturers, as well.

Another store in the area (the Music Box, in Wellesley) had a similar reputation. They had one thing I did not: a legend. One of the sources of their legend was the alignment work they did on the venerable and awesome Marantz 10B tuner.

The Marantz 10B was a tube-based tuner that boasted some very impressive specifications. It had near-infinite alternate-channel selectivity, adjacent channel rejection that bettered most other tuner's alternate channel specs. Its image rejection was phenomenal. Its audio distortions were remarkably low. And it had an ascilloscope for a tuning meter (actually a usefull thing in those days). What it had as a disadvantage was tubes.

The tuner did need its periodic alignment. For this the Music Box was legend. The standard price for 10B alignment and setup was $250. My God, everyone said, this must be the best alignment around! My God, I thought, what could possibly cost that much?

Well, the inevitable happened, someone brought a Marantz 10B into my shop for alignment. There it was, on my bench. A true diety of audio, and I had to work on it. Was I worthy? Was I able?

I happened to have a 10B service manual, so I sat down to study it. Wait a minute, I thought, this can't be a 10B service manual, it's too simple and straightforward. There's no magic. The only thing different is that they require you to align the IF section for minimum group delay and frequency dispersion. So what?

Well, this first job took an hour or so. When I was all done, the tuner met or exceeded every spec. I was most pleased. Hooking it up, it sounded wonderful. In the middle of Boston, no multi-path problems, no birdies.

The gentleman came to pick up his tuner. Out of his pocket he pulled a wad of $20 bills. "That'll be $45.", I said. "WHAT!", he exclaimed. I calmly explained to him that it took me an hour and a half, and my going rate was $30 and hour. He reluctantly forked over $45, took his tuner, and immediately marched over to the Music Box, and had them align it for $250! He then brought it back to me two weeks later and told me to measure how much better
it was. It measured exactly the same. He left with his tuner under his arm and his nose quite high in the air.

Well, it occured to me there that I had severely UNDERcharged him. The next time someone brought a 10B in, it took me 20 minutes, and I tried charging $75 dollars. The customers comments were, "Well, your not as expensive as the Music Box is, but I guess you get what you pay for." He left, moderately happy.

Well, shit, I thought. Why not try playing the game as others do. The next time someone brought in a 10B, I took 20 minutes to align it, and tried charging $225. The customer was in seventh audio heaven. Finally, he said, someone who can do as good a job as the Music Box, and charges less to boot!

There use to be a local radio program on HiFi in Boston. The next program, this guy calls in and can't say enough good things about me. Says I do the best 10B alignment in the world, and I also charge honest prices. Next thing I know, I have more people beating my door down trying to get me to align 10Bs than I know what to do with.

I later met the service man at the Music Box on neutral territory, and compared notes. It turns out that he took the same time I did, he did the same things I did, and he encountered the same response I did. "Why charge $250 to do such a simple job?", I asked. His reply was most simple, "Because people refuse to pay less."

Here we have, to me, a moral dilemna: I do a $30 job on a piece of equipment, charge $30, and people are not happy. I do the same $30 job, charge $225, and people are ecstatic. I did the best job possible, but in my mind, it was not worth $225.

Is my job to make people happy, or to charge them fair prices? An interesting source of debate material, indeed.

Dick Pierce
So do you get what you pay for?
 

Chris Lehner

Agent
Joined
Oct 17, 2002
Messages
43
Bob:
Believe it or not, I'm not interested in a flame war or continuing this thread much longer. I simply don't agree with your logic. You contend that because I don't know about XYZ cable, I am ignorant or new to the hobby. My take is very few people outside of these forums, or video engineering, probably know about these cables. I would venture to say that you could have a guy working a high-end A/V shop all his life, who maybe never bothered to step inside an A/V forum, who would know about tons of cables you've never heard of, but never have heard of Rhino, Wicked, etc. He would have one point of view, based on his experiences, and you would have yours; neither of you is less or more the expert.
I took offense to your inference that I was either new or ignorant...or both. I explained to you I was more of an audio guy (btw, not "an audio guy from the Spot), and as such am certainly not unaware of cable debate. I am newer to Video, but wouldn't consider myself a newbie . What I am new to, as you pointed out, is the boards.
So I'm in the market for component cables and post about which ones might be best for sub-$100. I include BC btw. When I hear about these "custom" makers, I express some skepticism. I generally believe you get what you pay for, but when it comes to cables, I too believe there is a lot of BS and maybe these custom cables are the way to go. Again, this is the first I've heard of them. You seem to find that incredulous. Tell me, where other than these boards, can I find talk of Rhino, Wicked, et al? At the BB? Tweeter? Many hi-end stores? Has one ever been reviewed? Stereophile? TAS?
As for this debate I've sparked about "you get what you pay for"...again, I'm not really interested in fighting this to death. I'm just always struck funny by enthusiasts of one group, who seem to lose their basics of economics when it comes to products of their hobby. Bob challenges me to do the math on cable-making. Are you trying to tell me there's a mark-up on cables Bob? Heavens no! How much do you think it costs to make that car you're driving? What you paid for it? Or the computer that you're posting from?
If these custom makers had thousands of employees to pay for, and advertising and overhead, their cables would be $100, not $50 and they might get crushed by bigger competitors. Then you'd dog...let's say Wicked was the next Monster...Wicked and praise new-small-cable-maker-du jour.
I see Monster has a THX-certified cable for $50 (8 ft.). Last I checked, THX was pretty picky about what they put their names on. If it's good enough for GL, it's good enough for me. I'm going to try it AND one of these custom cables; do an A/B. The loser will go on my HD cable box.
I mean, what happens in a year if my cable goes awry Bob; will these custom cable companies be there to replace it? Will they even be there? What do you think warranties and returns costs a company like Monster a year? Hard as it may be to believe, I'm no cheerleader for Monster. I don't own one single pair on my audio gear (AQ and KK...I suppose they're garbage too). I just think they're an easy target because they're big. Like geeks saying MS sucks. I tell ya what: you go out and write an OS that runs 90% of the PCs in the world and THEN you can tell me how MS sucks, ok Larry Ellison Jr.
I'll wrap up with one last thing, because while I'll certainly read the replies to this post (I never shy from a good debate), I'm hoping not to post about this topic again. This "you get what you pay for thing". Again, in general, I find that the "better" something is, the more it will tend to cost. I say "better", because that is VERY subjective in the A/V world and I say in general, because obviously there are exceptions; glorious exceptions. We call them BARGAINS. I don't mean a $3,000 turntable necessarily sounds better than the $2000 turntable, but it's usually a pretty safe bet it sounds better than a $100 turntable.
Shew, and all that before my first cup of coffee :D
CDL
 

Mark Rich

Second Unit
Joined
Oct 24, 2001
Messages
457
I think Monster gets a lot of bad attention because they are large, successful and spend a lot on marketing.
If you wanted to be honest you could start putting BC in that category too. They are the paid sponsors on all these forums and just about every web site that relates to HT. Wonder why you pay so much for their cables? The moderators are very quick to recommend them (they are paid advertisers after all)yet cut off anyone who criticize them in any way. On one forum (which shall remain nameless)a buyer who had received two defective orders was rudely cut off by the moderators for questioning BC's current quality control standards. It does bring into question the motive behind the advise/recommendations you read on these forums, especially from moderators/owners. Hopefully this will spark a debate and not get me banned.
 

Shion_ca

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Aug 17, 2002
Messages
89
Hey Chris,

To be helpful and on topic I have the following to say. I've heard the belden 892... jobs that Rhino sells, they do fine. I own a pair of audioquest corals that I payed much less than half price for just to see what the hype was, they do fine. I have a pair of the accoustic research Master series cable, they're fine. In retrospect I'd have taken the future shop Accoustic Research Master series cabeling because of it's good shielding in high rf areas. make your own belden solution and don't sheild if you don't need the shielding and can run your power cables AWAY from your interconnect. At full price I would have been upset about the audioquest coral, I'll stick with the AR stuff.

As for all the anti boutique stuff, I would find it very hard to believe that if you sit down with a pair of Harmonic Tech Pro Silway's in a system with upper end harmonic or cardass cableing and good components, you will be hard pressed not to hear a difference between an audio quest coral and a matching cable. Take a friend, don't talk about the differences if any, just write them down, copare notes, QED.
 

Chu Gai

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2001
Messages
7,270
Sorry to hear about the 'thou shalt not criticize' scenario Mark. Much as all have criticized Monster or Bose or whomever, there's a slew of people that would love that criticism as they're counting their dollars. Realistically though, I have no idea why Better Cables charges the prices they do other than they perhaps have, as you pointed out Mark, a rather substantial overhead. There's not much to a silver coated copper cable and anyone who does a google search on 75 ohm microwave cables will see there's quite a few places marketing the stuff. Besides, at the frequencies we're dealing with, a trivial amount of signal winds up on the silver anyways.
 

PatrickLG

Agent
Joined
May 22, 2002
Messages
29
I see Monster has a THX-certified cable for $50 (8 ft.). Last I checked, THX was pretty picky about what they put their names on. If it's good enough for GL, it's good enough for me. I'm going to try it AND one of these custom cables; do an A/B. The loser will go on my HD cable box.
Whoa Chris.... Last I checked THX was not at all picky about whom they certified!!!!!!! It takes a lot of MONEY to get THX to certify. This is one of the main reasons Tom Holman left THX. I am not speculating here, this is straight from the horses mouth. I have spoken to him in two seperate rooms he was tuning out here. GL was ready to blow THX out because it was costing him money in the past.
My first experience was getting a dub stage certified, yes it had to meet certain standards, but the money was first.
Now Monster being THX certified!!!! I dont see Monster being wired in Hollywood post houses.Heck, I spoke to the main tech at Capitol, who laughed Monster out of the building. All the cable used is Belden. Remember telecine rooms need also be certified, as DVD authoring rooms.
So we make Component cables with the same cable that are running in THX certified rooms....Belden.

How do I know this?? Im a sound editor and DVD remastering engineer here in tinseltown!!!
 

RussKon

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Oct 31, 2002
Messages
184
"danger will robinson"

this is one of those discussions that could go one for years...everyone has their opinion....ok ...here's mine...

copper is copper....as long as the connection is solid and you are not living next to a power plant....copper is copper....

by the way...have you heard that monster cable is now selling a dryer power cord for $90?......honest....the ironic thing is that i work at the distributor that sold monster cable the parts for this cable...a total of $5.00 in parts....

copper is copper....everything else is marketing
 

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