Best Bang For The Buck? HSU VTF 2 vs SVS 20-39 PCi vs HSU VTF 3 (1 Viewer)

[Jack Gilvey]

Nobody is condemmning SVS. You have to understand there are some of us that made a purchase when they did, in part because of the wording of the advertisment on the website.

Ok, understood.

 

[SVS-Ron]

Everthing on our site is always the truth as we know it at that time. ALWAYS. Let's be clear about that.
Prices COULD have gone up, or stayed the same. Had we mentioned the remote possibility that prices could go DOWN I guess we'd be OK? What if they didn't? Or would some people still be peeved no matter what we did? Or been peeved if they'd waited and the price didn't change the direction they'd hoped. Trust me, if the accounting and work we've done on accounting for various costs had gone the other way indeed the prices could well have gone up. This clearly would have pleased some people. Some would have been pissed if we'd kept prices the same too it seems. If I'd have bought even at what was a great price at the time maybe I would be too.
For the record two things with SVS will NEVER change. If prices have to go up, it's with great reluctance. If they stay the same, we get upwards of 5 hours a sleep that day answering only a few notes asking when prices will go up or down. If we CAN lower prices, and still get us 5 hours of sleep and put food on the table for all the employees. We do it.
Same with performance. We took alot of heat from folks who had bought in the past, when we improved our drivers but kept cost the same. If we can improve already great performance and keep price the same we do it, no questions. No meetings. It could happen over the span of 2 days. This price change was implemented in as short a time, just because we could. Regarding price protection policies (say 30 days) how many notes do you think we get from folks that bought at 31 days? Or 32? Maybe we float refunds to those 33 day'rs too?
Having said all that I too would prefer to find out my gear bought yesterday will be more, not less than I paid 6 months from now. Almost never happens, but the market can go either way, and I've found this out the hard way dozens of times.
It's difficult to balance financial concerns, service to both future and past customers... Predict a volatile component market, product demand, reactions of the competition... and in the end, do the right thing for everyone in all situations with all products. We do the best we can. Those with specific concerns or desires are always invited to contact us at [email protected]
We're here to serve, believe it or not.
Ron

 

[BobAlbano]

I totally agree with you on this Ron! I bought my 20-39cs+/Samson combo in January and I am tickled to death that I'm able to purchase the second sub for cheaper than the first. If you want to keep lowering the price on a already first rate sub I won't get in your way. Shoot, with the recent price drop I even ordered a dual 25-31cs+ combo for the family room. Drop the prices a little more and I might even be tempted into ordering a ultra combo! One damn proud SVS owner and supporter!

 

[Neil Joseph]

"""I got "Banned" from that other forum!!! They BANNED me!!! For NOTHING. I basically "debated" (read: made look bad) the owner of one of their heavy advertisers (SVS subwoofers to be exact) and the Owner jumped in, closed and locked the thread and BANNED me. The owner of that forum was so far up SVS's ass...Ugh! The owner of SVS is a TOTAL PSYCHO to say the least"""

It is for reasons like that that Barry was removed, and nothing to do with his review, which there was nothing wrong with in my opinion. I for one would LOVE to see a good professional comparison and review of all of these subs. The bottom line is that they are all good subs.

 

[Phil Iturralde]

rodney wiley - I used a single AudioSource SW15 (unmodified) in my 20' x 30' w/10' vaulted ceiling HT/family room (20' x 20' is solid cement foundation w/oak square flooring) since 1999. With careful room integration and VE LFE REFERENCE Calibration (set 4 dB Hot), also used AudioSource Sub-Woofer Setup CD (w/test tones sweeps & 5 digital music samples) to verify HT speaker & sub balance, ... I achieved that all important low, loud sub-sonic floor, air & wall moving impact my DVD could deliver, all appreciated by my usual Friday NITE DVD group. I set the SPL Level, as an AVG to -10 dB below REF, w/occasional 'Fast', LFE SPL Peaks reaching 105 - 106 dB (i.e. Tomorrow Never Dies SE, ID-4, Phantom Menace, Charlie's Angels, Tomb Raider, etc.) Been doing that since 1998 as a rule, ... basically loud enough to 'feel' it without loss of dialog clarity* during the chaotic or whispering moments of the DVD movie (*also dependant on the Center speaker quality).
Musically, my Yamaha AV Receiver allowed me to optimize the sub SPL (separate) output for my Music CD's (DPL TV broadcast; LD's; VHS Tapes) vs. DVD LFE, and the SW15 successfully blended in very nicely with my JBL's, playing back my Jazz Music CD's (2-channel w/sub) by Bob James, David Grusin, David Benoit, Diana Krall, Joe Sample, etc. with excellent balance throughout 30Hz to 20 kHz.
Last April, I received my SVS 25-31PCi and it not only maintained all the impact, frequency coverage that I was familiar with my SW15, but added more visceral 'feel' (cement floor, couch, pant leg - new sensation, air, etc.) sub-sonic impact that was already encoded in my Blockbuster DVD's, but the SW15 didn't reproduce in such authority! (Sweet-spot 9' from my Center, about 13' from my SVS 25-31PCi, located in the front right corner behind my 6' Yamaha Grand Piano)
Overall balance Musical balance was just about the same, though the SVS 25-31PCi was smoother & flatter in the 40 - 70 Hz region (no unnatural bass peaks - really evident with my familiar CD's), while playing back my Jazz Music CD's - which turns out to be a great thing!!!
All-in-all, every DD/DTS 5.1 DVD Movies, that I had time to re-visit from my library reveals impressive low and loud support once unheard or felt before. Last night, my son and I were watching "Big Trouble in Little China" (DTS - watched many times before @ -10 dB below REF, but first time with my SVS set 2 dB Hot) and the .1 LFE track impact came alive with room moving authority.
Re-watching my DVDs (297 presently) w/my SVS 25-31PCi has been a sonic treat, ... not only to me, but my family, friends and especially my brother when he's over. (He loves it @ -3 to 5 dB below REF Level! )
Start out with one SVS 25-31PCi, and see if you feel the need for two. Your experience may be like mine, where @ -5 dB below REF Level, my kitchen (20 - 30 ft away) wooden floor w/matching oak squares, plates and glasses in the cupboards, vibrates! I usually do that when the wife is out - though my brother and son loves this Cinema Theater SPL Level!!!
NOTE: Because my website is 'free', hosted by GeoCities, if too many HT enthusiasts visit, GeoCities will shut it down for an hour or so because it exceeded the specified 'freebie' Data Transfer Rate. Sorry about that, just bookmark it and visit my site an hour later or when everyone has gone to bed!
Want to feel the Movie?
Phil

 

[Neil Joseph]

And you need to pull your JD out of your...

It really amazes me how a little piece of hardware brings out the worst in us. May I remind you that if any of you have problems or beefs with each other you can feel free to e-mail each other about it, just keep the comments off the forum. Keep it clean and objective.

 

[Sasha_G]

Rodney said:


According to the Tom Nousaine measurements, the 12 inch SVS 20-39 CS was rated at 91 dB at the very deep 20 Hz, with the harmonic distortion limit at 10%.

A 10 inch Hsu VTF-2 was rated at 93 db at 20 Hz with under 10% THD (max extension mode).

Unless I've missed a relevant piece of information, that means the 10 inch VTF-2 outperformed a 12 inch SVS when it came to distortion and output in an extension metric. Having a 10 inch even in the same league as a 12 incher seems like a feat to me. I think that overall, the SVS averages out to be a bit louder compared to the VTF-2 in max extension mode. Switching the VTF-2 to max output mode will make the average output levels about the same considering the 10% distortion level (109.7 db 25 to 62 Hz for the VTF-2 vs. 109.5 25 to 63 hz for the SVS 20-39 CS).


As I learn more about the complexities of subwoofer design, the numbers I *used* to look to (woofer size, frequency response + or - 3 dB, excursion size, amp size) have less and less to do with actual distortion levels.

Another factor is dynamic distortion. Because the SVS and Hsu subwoofers I've seen are ported, they risk bottoming out and having "mechanical problems" at high output levels. While some think NOT having a subsonic filter is a feature and benefit, I think it can cause potential problems and dynamic distortion. Not sure about the SVS, but Hsu amps have built in subsonic filters and don't overpower the woofer too much, which helps reduce dynamic distortion at high output levels.

Does low distortion equal percieved sound quality? That is another question. The way a speaker sounds to an individual and the way it behaves in a room are critical (rather, how the *room* behaves is critical). Making a *room* sound better is often not an issue in home theater setups. Putting up sound absorbing material on the walls is just too ugly for many home theaters, and construction too expensive. So, positioning the subwoofer is *critical*. The great thing is, positioning the subwoofer better does not cost anything, and the improvement is usually greater than buying new interconnect or buying more expensive components. Peronally, I'd rather have an accurate, somewhat neutral speaker to begin with, and as technology improves purchase a processor that can handle EQing for better room response and for listener preference.

My 2 cents.

 

[Ryan Schnacke]

I believe the SVS PC and PCi subwoofers have always had subsonic filters. The PC+ subs are said to have adjustable subsonic filters for those who choose to change the tuning by plugging a port.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

Sasha,

We have a $499 25-31PCi sitting at Hometheaterhifi right now(to be used in some down the road review). Would you like me to contact John Johnson and ask if he would be interested in doing a shootout with the vtf-2? You are a Hsu dealer so you can send him a unit immediately,(With Dr. Hsu's permission)correct?

I think a LOT of HTF members would love to see these two subwoofers compared by a respected professional in the field...I know I would.You game?


As for the data on the Vtf-2...

There has been extensive debate on the data for that particular subwoofer piece. I said when it was first published(may 2000) it looked like someone edited it downstream and applied the *small* room compensation to the data before it was published.

Here are reasons why this MIGHT be,

1)If the data is correct, than the Klipsch sw12 would be within about a dB of the Klipsch ksw300(march 1998). The Ksw300 has about double the enclosure volume,75% more port area,3x the rated amp power and a 15" driver compare to the sw12's 12" driver.

I have personally measured both of these subs,and I can tell you the sw12 is NOT within a dB of its much larger,much more powerful big brother(the ksw300).

And if anyone has heard/measured these subs in their own HT...I think they would agree.

2)The Mission 700...which was $299-$349 street priced not long ago hit >108dB(25-63hz) in the same review that had the vtf-2 data.

This would make the small mission 10" sub more powerful than the VEL HGS15" servo($2500),Paradigm pw2200,paradigm servo15,ect.(anyone believe that?) And in a follow up review on a whole mission package including the 700 series subwoofer again...the data dropped a few dBs(I can't find this review though so I can't quote exact numbers) and looked just like the old numbers would have if they had the *small* room compensation applied by mistake.

3)Going by the TN numbers, the vtf-2 handily beats the VEL ct150. But when both subs where reviewed by Ferstler, he found the CT150 outgunned the vtf-2...?

TN gave the vtf-2 a 11dB advantage at 20hz and Ferstler gave the CT150 a 4dB advantage at 20hz.

I don't expect to see neat parallels when going from one review style to another...but I think you'll agree a huge swing like this indicates something is amiss?

4)If you think the vtf-2 numbers are correct, than that means the vtf-2 matched/beat the TN25/250w combo that TN previously reviewed.

Do you really think the vtf-2(150w amp,10" driver, 3" port) would match/outgun the Hsu TN25(250w amp,12" driver,4" port)? If so, why?



TV

 

[Drew Bethel]

>>>A 10 inch Hsu VTF-2 was rated at 93 db at 20 Hz with under 10% THD (max extension mode).

 

[Manuel Delaflor]

Just how strong at 20Hz will an SVS 25PCi would be?

More than 90dB? Or an alternative question, considering that it is at -3dB at 25Hz, how much lower in dB will be at 20Hz with the 25Hz tunning point? and at the 22Hz tunning point?

Also, which are the disadvantages of tunning it at 22Hz instead of the original 25Hz?

With the current prices... it is Very Likely that I will buy either the 25PCi or a 20PCi!

 

[Sasha_G]

I'm no expert on the differences between the CS series and the PCi, so I would be shot down if I said they were the same. I think there are many similar components, but that the PCi has a hole cut in the side. I wonder, would cutting the tube reduce the rigitity of the tube?

On the SVS website, it says:



I don't think you need a 700 watt amp that comes with the CS series if your room is small. Maybe the 3xx amp on the PCi do for your size room?

And yes, the VTF-2 numbers are from TN measurements.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>Just how strong at 20Hz will an SVS 25PCi would be?

More than 90dB? Or an alternative question, considering that it is at -3dB at 25Hz, how much lower in dB will be at 20Hz with the 25Hz tunning point? and at the 22Hz tunning point?

 

[Manuel Delaflor]

Hi there Tom

"In an average size room...a 25-31PCi would extend to the 21-23hz range.(it extends to about 20-21hz in my 2100 cu-ft shoebox. If you wanted SVS to custom tune the enclosure for you...say down to 22hz...you would gain another 1/6th octave extension wise(another 3hz(ish)), and you would lose a tiny bit of maximum output capability >25hz.(a single dB or less for the most part)."

I can live with less output for more extension, so I will want a custom tune. How many dB down will be the 20Hz on the modified 25PCi? (approximately of course). Oh, and I just sent you a private message on the Klipsch Forums, I want to buy a couple of PCi and have a couple of questions.

Thanks, I look forward for your answers!

 

[SVS-Ron]

Sasha,

You (and I know Dr. Hsu voiced this) might think an amp in the side of the tube would "compromise" it in some way. Actually due to our one of a kind construction technique the PCi's are STRONGER than a CS in any sort of structural sense. I'm sure if you ever get a chance to actually see a PCi you might agree. Stout is not the word. Beyond stout.

We do say the CS is the most affordable, because of course it is. As you noted: "I don't think you need a 700 watt amp that comes with the CS series" You made our point exactly. You DON'T need a big Samson. You can use nearly any sort of decent quality amp. An old stereo amp, old receiver, an inexpensive plate amp. Just the sort of thing that thousands of folks have collecting dust in their closets. There is no need for power robbing equalization with a CS sub so even as little as 50-75 watts have been known to work very well.

For a single sub application, if you DID elect a CS and Samson amp, then indeed a PCi would be more economical. This is why we always ask if the room or user's tastes would dictate a dual sub either immediately or later. When dual subs make sense we invariably recommend CS-type subs with either the customers own amp or a Samson. Dual PC-type subs will always cost more.

Shall we assume you might be sending a VTF-2 to Dr. Johnson at "Secrets"?? It'd be a great way to quickly get these two "contenders" under $500 in the same testing environment. Just a thought. I have no idea if Dr. Johnson would even agree to such a thing though; I know he's got review equipment coming out of his ears.

Ron

 

[EricHaas]

Is it a common practice for a vendor to send a piece out for review? I kind of thought that was the exclusive decision of the manufacturer.

 

[Sasha_G]

Sorry, I missed TVs post about the numbers before.
Regarding the debatability of TN's numbers, I can't speculate about the why they came out the way they did. If TN says they were off, I would believe him. I've never met him, maybe you could ask?
I do hear some of your points. You said that your measurements differed from TN. Did you measure the 10% THD using the same method he did?
If so, how?
I ask becuase the method used to measure THD can dramatically effect readings.
TV said:
Actually, the true performance of a production TN1225HO has not been measured by TN. TN's review sample had pre-production drivers with poor suspension alignment. The magnetic and mechanical centers were off by 5.5mm. It is surprising that even when broken, the TN25 managed to about equal the VTF-2s average output.
As far as the Johnson review is concered, I cannot agree to a shootout with the reviewer you suggested unless the authorities that be think he is truly an impartial reviewer. I don't have the authority to give the go ahead for the manufacturer. I wouldn't mind getting my own hands on a SVS sub for a listening test, though .
I think it would be an interesting comparison, considering that subwoofers, when they are able to reproduce the sound sent to them, often produce the greatest amounts of distortion of any component in a system. I am very interested in the harmonic and dynamic distortion levels of both speakers, and how that effects percieved sound quality.

 

[Johnny Mac]

I would be very, very suprised if a VTF-2 could keep up with an SV PCi model.

Tom, you've told us about hz, now tell us about the decibels man. How strong is the 25-31PCi at 20hz with a limit of 10% THD. At 25? I'm sure you know the answer to this question and I don't think anyone will consider this to be objective data. Humor us? Heck, PM me if you want. I gotta know.

 

[BryanZ]

I wouldn't be. Both are top notch subs. I am pretty sure Dr. Johnson at "Secrets" would be willing to do a comparison. What could it hurt to ask?

 

[Adil M]

I'd rather see the HSu VTF3 vs a 20-39 PCi+. Let's redo BArry's reviews w/ "JJ."