best 7.1 dsp, THX ultra 2, logic7, denon widescreen (1 Viewer)

[Kevin C Brown]

I actually did look through the info I have collected over the years, but even though I did keep the single pg blurbs on the 3801 and 3802, I didn't keep the manuals. I will next try to get motivated to download the manual again and check it. I'm not making this up. I distinctly remember seeing the description in the 3802 manual. (Even posted in a few forums back then about how that mode would compare to Outlaw's CES and Rotel's xS modes for 7.1, and no Denon people contradicted it.) Now, it *is* possibly that they changed it for the xxx3 models, but I would imagine that they'd change the name too. Yes, I actually did the Y-connector thing with a Sony TA-E9000ES just to see what the effect was like, and it wasn't the drop-off in performance from Logic 7 that I thought it'd be.

 

[John S]

You have to watch those blurbs in the Denon manual, especially side notes on the tables in the manuals. There may be like one case sound source + sound mode + post processing that may produce what your saying.

I was playing with it some last night, it is NOT a simple duplication of channels. Not on 2 channel nor 5.1 sources from all I could tell by listening to only one speaker at a time, during any given passage.

 

[David Proud]

John when you where playing with it in widescreen mode did you have effect on or off. the manual states when in widescreen 7.1 mode with effect turned off the sounds in the side channels are duplicated to the rear channels.

that leaves the question what happens when effect is on and what exactly does the effect level due to the effect. i am curious what effect on exactly does to the surround speakers.

obviously you would never want to run effect off as you would get comb filtering due too the exact same sound being duplicated in two speakers, 'smearing of the rear soundstage due to the exact same freqs and sounds arriving at your ears at different times" and phase issues as well.

so the question is with effect on in widescreen 7.1 mode does it attempt to apply any dsping to deal with comb filtering or any dsping to extract ambiant sounds to the rear speakers on hard pans, etc. i am curious def.

John, can you test the widescreen 7.1 mode with effect on and adjust the effect level to attempt to see what effect is doing.

the manual also states to reduce effect level if sounds seem distorted or in an unatural location.

test what happens to the surround sound as you increase effect level. also test some fly overs with jets, etc and hard pans left to right and see if the dsp pushes those hard pans and directional sounds to the back of the back wall speakers.

play a test tone in 5.1 on each speaker, like the video essential final walk around the room and pay attention to tbhe side and rear speakers for silence as the author walks around the front sound stage and as he works his way to the side surround pay attention to make sure the sound is steered properly as he walks around to the back of the room and back to the side surround again.

i would do more test8ng on this mode but i currently dont have my theater room built and am trying to make a decision on keeping my denon for 7.1 playback or going with a processor.

david

 

[David Proud]

can anyone with a denon reciever and 7.1 confirm exactly what is happening in the Widescreen Mode with Effect on and what raising the effect level does.

I am still curious if this mode address's comb filtering or does any ambiance extraction and steering to the rears.

 

[Harry Lincoln]

I'll play around with the 3803 tonight and see what I can find out.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

I did check the 4802 manual, and it does look like it's doing more than just copying those channels. But the 3802 manual is gone from Denon's web site, so I can't even check where I originally saw the reference.

David- I really don't think comb filtering is going to be an issue. For example, comb filtering (lobing) is a problem with center channels that have the woofer-tweeter-woofer arrangement, because of the distance between the two woofers. Maybe 1 ft to 2 ft difference, but I'm guessing your rears are going to be at least 5 ft or so away from the surrounds?

 

[David Proud]

hi Kevin. Yes my rears will be exactly 5ft away from my side surrounds.

Anybody do any testing to see exactly how the widescreen mode works and what the effect level does.

 

[Harry Lincoln]

Sorry, didn't get home till late, I'll try to check it tonight.

 

[John S]

I have never tried it with the effect off, it seems to be set to level 10 in the surround paramaters though.

I love the Widescreen mode, I really do use it almost exclusively. MNF seems to be better on Dolby ProLogicII though as well as a few other sources also, some are better with DTS also.

 

[Harry Lincoln]

Gave it a try last night. There is definately some dsp going on. Effect level seems to affect the volume of the 4 surrounds, but doesn't turn off the dsp. With the effect level set to 1 (lowest) I could hear a reverb effect in the rear speakers. Sounds similar to the 'enhanced' mode on yamaha receivers. Turning up the effect level made this effect louder.
I configured the 3803 to play 5.1 DD sources as non matrix 7.1 - the rear spearkers duplicate the side speakers. I switched between that mode and widescreen to do the comparisons. I also ran the same test in 5.1 mode with the same results.

 

[David Proud]

ah. so what sounds better. Widescreen mode or the other?

also other than reverb does it do any steering from the sides to the back surrounds on hard pans or obvious overhead movements?

 

[Harry Lincoln]

Which one sounds better? DDEX.

I'm not a fan of DSP in general, when I had a yammy DSPA3090 I thought they were great at first but after a while I found myself going for straight DD or DTS.
You really need to listen to it to decide for yourself if you like more than DD/DTS.

 

[David Proud]

well the reason I ask about steering in the Widescreen mode is simple. If you pull the sides up closer to firing parallel to the listening position, "you do this to obtain stronger side imaging that cannot be achieved using the ITU 5.1 placement standards", you really screw up the stereo depth that can be had by having your sides 15 to 20degrees hehind and on the side. I am defining stereo depth as sounds than can come from your back left to back right of the room. stereo depth.

Therefore side to rear steering in 7.1 dsp is very important. If you pull the sides up there needs to be some kinda DSP,"DPIIX,LOGIC7,DENON WIDESCREEN" to move the sounds from the sides to the back rear left or back rear right to get that stereo depth that could be achieved with the 15 to 20degree rule.

DD EX will not produce a stereo depth only a mono depth shrinking your rear imaging greatly to the middle of the back of the room. Although it maybe fine for DD EX titles but it does not address regular 5.1 titles that do not have a DD-EX track. Logic7,Dolby IIx, and I am trying to figure out if the Denon Widescreen mode does decent stereo steering from sides to rears to give stereo depth.

 

[John S]

All my surrounds are at cieling level. The steering seems lively and accurate on DTS, DD, DPLII and Widescreen, I have all modes set A+B. My room is 30' x 20'....

When listening to music, I use 7 channel stereo.

I use the Denon Widescreen DSP 90+% of the time on surround content. There are some Laserdics (Fed by optical, no AC-3), and live brodcasts in particular that actually do seem better with DPLII. If the content is DTS, I usually try to use a DTS mode.

Did this answer your questions????

 

[Harry Lincoln]

As far as I could tell, the right surr and the right surr back speaker put out the same signal in the widescreen mode, likewise for the left.
Swithching between DD (using 7.1 non matrix) and widescreen (7.1), the signal in the rear channel sounds the same, except for the dsp processing. When comparing DDEX to widescreen there is different information in the back channel.

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Although it maybe fine for DD EX titles but it does not address regular 5.1 titles that do not have a DD-EX track.
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I force the EX decoding on all 5.1 titles, the only ones that dont get good results are older movies recorded with mono rears.

 

[John S]

What is your effect level on the Widescreen surround paramters screen???? That is what happend when I set mine to zero of turned off the effect completely.

 

[Harry Lincoln]

The default for the effect level is 10. My 3803 wont let me select zero for the effect level, 1 is the lowest setting and there is definately DSP going on in the rears regardless of where I set the effect level.

 

[John S]

Interesting..... results for both of us.

I could detect definet differences in content, also there seemed to be some delay going too, as I could position one ear to each speaker when both were playing.

 

[Harry Lincoln]

I'm an idiot. I tried to turn off the effect level by selecting the lowest value and then pressing the arrow key again, like you turn off the sub. I didn't see the line above it that says effect on/off.