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Behringer Europower 2500: OK for Tumult? (1 Viewer)

Tom Rosback

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Hi Jerry,

There are no output protection relays. This is typical of pro amps. Most consumer amps have some kind of relay output protection. This keeps the thumps away and may protect a speaker if the amp fails.

There are 25 Amp fuses in each output of the Behringer. These fuses may protect the amp, but they sure won't protect your speakers! There may be additional current limiters built into the amp, but I couldn't tell for sure without a schematic or a lot of time. ;)

I got the Tumult box glued together today. Should be rockin' by next weekend!
 

Tom Rosback

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Per a request from another thread, I measured the Behringer 2500 fan loudness. At 1 ft from the front of the amp, I measure 50 dBa, A-weighted.

In my setup, with a Sony G-70 CRT PJ, the amp wouldn't be a problem. Not quiet, but not too intrusive, either. I haven't experienced other amps, so I don't have a reference.
 

Jerry Parker

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Jan 15, 2001
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Tom, in my setup, it is too loud. :frowning: When watching a movie or listening to music at somewhat high levels, its not a problem. But when I listen to music at lower volumes the noise is too much IMO.

Do you know if it need a 24vdc fan like the QSC RMX series does? I won't be running it less than 4ohms stereo, so I figure a fan with a few less CFM won't hurt cooling performance too much.
 

SteveCallas

Second Unit
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Dec 23, 2003
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Perhaps a stupid question, but what would be the negatives of using these pro amps to power home theater speakers instead of a much higher priced home theater specific amp?
 

JimPeitersen

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Dec 7, 2001
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Steve,
No real "negatives," just issues that may or may not be problem areas for you, such as:
Input Sensitivity of pro amps
Fan noise (on most, but not all, pro amps)
Size (they are generally larger than typical consumer amps)
Input connections (1/4" phono, balanced xlr, or barrier strip)
Appearance (they are generally "industrial" looking and many have rack handles, knobs, LED's, fan covers, etc. on the front panel)
JP
 

Tom Rosback

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119
Jerry,

So sorry, I didn't check the fan voltage when I had the unit open.

Steve,
I'll second Jim's comments and also add that most Pro amps don't have speaker protection relays. You can get big thumps on power-on and power-off. I'd also note that Pro amp fidelity may not be as high as some consumer amps. This is certainly debatable, and I'd expect that there is a lot of quality variation in both camps.

With most HT main speakers in the 88-92 dB sensitivity range, you probably won't need more than 100WPC to get reasonable levels in most rooms. I'm using a Pro amp for my Tumult because I need a 1000W to get to the bass levels I'm looking for in my room. That's where Pro amps really make sense.
 

Wayne Ernst

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Feb 24, 2002
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Tom,

It appears some "pro" amps do feature "soft" power-ons to minimize the thumps that can be heard from time-to-time. One such amp: Nady Amp

Granted, this amp doesn't feature the power output that your Behringer provides. Also, I'm not sure about the Nady specs (e.g. damping factor, etc.) for this amp.
 

JimPeitersen

Second Unit
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Just out of curiousity, are the Nady amps more of the QSC RMX clones? Looking at their specs, and prices, I've always wondered about them.
JP
 

Tom Rosback

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119
Wayne,
The Nady looks like a nice piece. The block diagram in the users manual clearly shows an output protection circuit. Most Pro amps don/t have output protection. Looks like this amp has two heatsink tunnels and two fans.
 

Wayne Ernst

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I just don't want all of you to place an order for the Nady XA-900 before I do. It looks like the XA-900 might be in short supply - and possibly even discontinued. Most other vendors are only selling the XA-1100 (550 watts x 2 @ 4 Ohms) which can be picked up for $249 + shipping.

The XA-900 seems like a "beefy" amp and weighs in at 38 Lbs. Considering the case itself is just stamped sheet metal, the "guts" seem to be quite heavy. :)
 

Tom Rosback

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Jun 7, 2000
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Over a month ago, I started this thread with a question:

Behringer Europower 2500: OK for Tumult?

The answer is YES. Definitely.

I finished the Tumult project last night around 11:00. Didn't get to bed until 3:30A. Great fun!

I'm running the Behringer 2500 in bridged mono mode, and the Tumult voice coils are connected in series for a 4 ohm load. The 2500 is being driven unbalanced, with Pins 1 and 3 jumpered in the male XLR.

For now, the amp is in the room on the floor next to the speaker, and is being driven directly from the pre/pro output, with no EQ. The Tumult is in an approx 3 cu ft sealed enclosure. The plan will be to mount the amp in my equipment closet and use a Behringer Feedback Destroyer for EQ. Perhaps an LT circuit later on.

The first thing I noticed, there was absolutely NO turn-on or turn-off bumps or thumps. Also, I had no trouble with 60 Hz hum. Dead quiet, no ground lifters or cheaters required.

I made the mistake of not calibrating the setup first off. I managed to clip the amp on the "Boo Laughter" scene from Monsters, Inc. So, there was no problem driving this thing to full output with my Fosgate/Audionics pre/pro.

During calibration with Avia, I had to turn the front panel gain control DOWN from 34 dB to 28 dB, (-6 db) to get the same levels as my previous setup.

Any consumer receiver should be able to drive this unit, no problem.

I was seeing over 105 dB at 20 Hz in my smallish 11' 17' x 8' (1500 cu ft) room. The driver wasn't close to its excursion limit.

For now, I'll say this appears to be a very potent combination.

I can't wait to do more extensive testing on the amp and speaker, but that will have to wait until I get back from work tonight.

Regards,
 

Dave Crigna

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Dec 8, 2001
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Thanks for the update...
Where are you measuring 105bd @20hertz from? Seating position?
Also how bad is the fan noise when its going full stream?
 

Wayne Ernst

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Feb 24, 2002
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I guess the use of "pro" amps has led to me a few questions:

1) If a pro amp is being used to power a pair of subs, how can one handle the "phase" issues that might pop up? I know SVS sells such a device to make these adjustments, but is there another method of accomplishing this?

2) The "pro" amps don't have sub-sonic filters like the sub plate amps do. Does this become an issue when using a "pro" amp?

I guess I'm sort of on the fence in regards to ordering two plate amps for the subs I'm going to be building - or, to just order a "pro" amp to handle the chore.
 

Tom Rosback

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Jun 7, 2000
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119
Dave,
105 dBa at the seating position. The fan is definitely noticeable, by my G-70 CRT PJ is louder, so it's not an issue. I will be putting the amp in a separate equipment room anyway. I'll be running more tests in the next few days.

Wayne,
You can switch polarity 180 degrees but there is no variable control. Many Pro-amps have sub sonic filters. The Mackie comes to mind. The Behringer I've got comes with filters, but they're at too high a frequency (30 Hz) to be useful.

Pro amps are good if you really need the high power output they provide.
 

Tom Rosback

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Jun 7, 2000
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I've measured the power output of the Behringer 2500 at 20 Hz, and I'm getting 2100 watts into 4 ohms bridged mono. Not too shabby at all.

The details on the Behringer and Tumult are here:

http://home.mn.rr.com/hometheater/

I finally put up a crude website for the theater.
 

Wayne Ernst

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Feb 24, 2002
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Tom,

Thanks for sharing the information on your theater, the build process for your Tumult box and the information on the Behringer amp. Essentially, I don't have many words to say, but, in summary, I'll just say: SWEET !! :) :)
 

Jack Gilvey

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Mar 13, 1999
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Great stuff, Tom...thanks for taking the time. According to Adire, the Tumult actually dips down to 3.2 ohms, so the amp is stable even running bridged full-out down that low..pretty impressive. Any comments on the subjective quality...does it sound better/worse/same than other sub amps you've tried?
 

Tom Rosback

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Jun 7, 2000
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Wayne, thanks for your kind comments! This has been a fun project. It never ends.

Jack, my only other subjective reference is the ACI DV-12 in a 2 cu ft enclosure, powered by a Hafler 9130. There is really no comparison in extension and output.

I havent tried any other Pro amps. If I get some time today, I'll try the Behringer 2500 in my 2 channel system and post a qualitative comparison. I've got a pretty good 2 channel rig that should illuminate any amplifier faults.

Many thanks for your help early on in the process, when I was deciding how to proceed with the Tumult project. I added info to the acoustics section of my website. I'd like your feedback on it.

Regards,

Tom
 

Dave Crigna

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Dec 8, 2001
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Great site, I can not believe you think that is a crude website you made.

Another question on the fan noise. Is the fan variable speed? If so, when you measured it, was that at full tilt? And, how much of a difference us there between regular operation and really pushing it?

Again thank you for sharing your experiences.
 

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