BBC: DVD Region coding system on the verge of colapse! (1 Viewer)

[stephen abbot]

David, lets compare apples with apples here.

I would suggest that if you were to play a DVD that was infact at 25fps (ie a disc of 25fps video material) on the Malata then you will get some pretty annoying temporal effects that you would not get from a broadcast quality conversion process.

However when you play film sourced DVD's then you will get the same result (in temporal terms) as if you played an NTSC disc on the machine as DVD's of films are normally encoded at 24fps regardless of the final playout standard. The only thing the Malata must do in this case is perform a simple spatial scaling job to reduce a 720x576 frame to 720x480. Because this is a reduction in resolution it is hardly surprising that the end result looks good by NTSC standards.


Regards

Stephen.

 

[Thik Nongyow]

Is it interesting that while some people may complain about region-coding, these same people are in some way supporting region-coding by purchasing region-coded DVDs?

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Is it interesting that while some people may complain about region-coding, these same people are in some way supporting region-coding by purchasing region-coded DVDs?

There's no alternative. The only way not to buy region-coded DVDs would be to not buy DVDs (which doesn't really make a specific point about region coding) or only buy Region 0 DVDs (which is entirely too limited).

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Stephen,
Yes, I was referring to conversion from 24 fps film-source material.
However, the reason for such emphasis in my comments is that I have some 24 fps film-source material that was transfered from PAL masters in the studio to convert to "NTSC" DVD and the results are really bad. The new 16x9 Pride and Prejudice is a perfect example. If you do frame-by-frame stepping every 3rd frame or so you get a "ghost" image that was introduced by some weird digital conversion process....not to mention all the weird panning/motion dithering artifacts that are a complete shame.
Oh well. Too bad they just didn't do a 480 master from scratch or use the Malata to do the conversion from the extant PAL disc

 

[stephen abbot]

Fair comment David, I have noted that there are some 25fps PAL to NTSC converted discs out there as there are in the other direction. I find this a horrid practice that may have been acceptable in the days when folk used the Very Horrible System, but is not really tolerable with the current level of domestic equipment performance.

regards

Stephen

 

[Jeff Kleist]

I don't support region coding. I'm a proud owner of a region free deck and I get what I want, when I want, from where I want

 

[YANG]

One thing that the studios do not get to understand,is that region coding does not really stops the flow of domestic products to overseas.
There are lots of factors/key elements that attracts overseas collector's attention to foreigen products rather than local distributed softwares.

For example,in the UK,there are films that are cut either by the BBFC or the local studios to acheive lower viewer rating.(Examples are the MUMMY RETURNS and PREDATOR and MATRIX several years back...)
This brings collectors attention to foreign release from the U.S or AUSTRALIA or even from the european STATES.

In SINGAPORE,due to the strict local censorship requirment and practice,lots of titles are banned because of theatrical rating of R(A) and NC16.Such as BLACK HAWK DOWN,SAVING PRIVATE RYAN and ENEMY AT THE GATES.
Any theatrical titles passed with PG rating with clean cut(unedited) will eventually make it to the softwares uncut,no matter local distributed ones or foreign imports.
The popularity of U.S R1 discs in SINGAPORE is due highly to the attention from collectors on the better audio/visual quality over local produced softwares.

What i had mentioned in on censorship issues.

Now to disc content.
Foreign release may sometime better than the U.S release in several ways.Such as director's cuts,DTS surround sound or uncut versions over U.S edited titles.(Such as JACKIE CHANS movies released uncut from HK over the U.S release)

So do you think region coding or RCE can stop collector's attention all over the world from bring one discs from one region to another???

NO!

 

[Jeff Kleist]

I don't understand why some things are region coded

My Japanese concert discs are region 2 and 3. Why not 1? There are maybe 5000 people in the US that would be interested in the title, why not code it 1 just to cover those fans?

 

[Julian Lalor]

I don't understand why some things are region coded

For many titles, it comes down to rights issues. Films and other product on DVD often have different distributors in different territories. DVDs are manufactured to be sold only in specific territories, and region coding is a means to restrict the sale of these titles in other territories. Of course, the problem with this is that it is legal for consumers in many non-licensed territories to import these DVDs from their point of origin provided they don't on-sell these discs for commercial gain. This forms the basis of region-hacked players, which are also permitted under the laws of many countries. At least for the moment.

 

[TheoGB]

I don't support region coding. I'm a proud owner of a region free deck and I get what I want, when I want, from where I want

Except for Buffy where I thought you promised to only buy R1 product?

 

[James Reader]

For many titles, it comes down to rights issues. Films and other product on DVD often have different distributors in different territories. DVDs are manufactured to be sold only in specific territories, and region coding is a means to restrict the sale of these titles in other territories. Of course, the problem with this is that it is legal for consumers in many non-licensed territories to import these DVDs from their point of origin provided they don't on-sell these discs for commercial gain. This forms the basis of region-hacked players, which are also permitted under the laws of many countries. At least for the moment.

I don't like your chilling 'for the moment' line at the bottom of your comment. :frowning:
Look - it's a fair point that film rights are licensed to different companies in different territories. But it is not a fair point to say that you can ONLY buy the copies from the local distributor.
That is a monopoly. Plain and simple. And goes against free trade laws.
Look, the studios do enough to support locally licensed product by NOT selling the discs in other countries. But there is no law and should be no law to stop me from purchasing a disc from an American e-tailer. That's called free trade and that's what the new, global economy is based upon. Film studios are perfectly happy to take advantage of the global economy when it suits them - filming overseas because it's cheaper etc, but then they want a LAW to stop the consumers taking advantage of it for themselves? It's not even the average consumer, because most people don't even know what region coding is, let alone how to get round it!
I find it both unbelievable and arrogant that the motion picture industry expects laws to be passed - in all territories I should add - that amount to basically Government sponsored monopolies. At a time when - our government at least - actually appears to be doing something to reduce monopolies and cartels.
A locally licensed DVD already has the odds stacked in it's favor but the simple fact that it's discs can be bought over the counter. If they really want to stop the small proportion of R1 imports, they should do what any other business has to do if it want's to sell more of it's product which is offer high quality product for a reasonable price, instead of all the half-baked compromises we always seem to end up with in the UK.
But instead they hide behind the smokescreen of digital piracy, which as we all know has nothing to do with the region coding system.
As for the license argument, perhaps we should create toys that fall apart, clothes that come un-stitched books with invisible ink when exported because all can involve territorial licenses, but all are perfectly legal to import for personal use and no-one would be stupid enough to suggest otherwise - so why should the motion picture industry be any different?

 

[Yee-Ming]

James, I agree with you, but region coding is arguably a "legacy", or rather a result, of the territoriality of copyright.

copyright only exists in each particular territory. the copyright in each territory CAN be separately assigned and therefore separately owned, which in effect means that one entity could legitimately make and sell copies of something in one country, but cross the border and it would be considered a pirate for doing the same thing.

I'm a little rusty on my copyright law, but there used to be some territories where even if a copy was "made with the consent of the copyright owner" (i.e. legit) in another country, since in the first country the "copyright owner" was someone else and since that owner's consent had not been given, the copy was infringing.

nowadays I think most countries have laws that say something like "made with the consent of the copyright owner in the country of manufacture", which therefore allows parallel imports. but you can see that it does upset revenue streams to the respective copyright owner in the particular country.

personally I've always thought this territorial "splitting" of copyrights to be a bit half-assed, how can you own "something" in one country but not another? but that's something for scholars of jurisprudence with more brain-power than me to ponder.

 

[Julian Lalor]

That is a monopoly. Plain and simple. And goes against free trade laws.

But not against copyright laws. The grant of copyright is an exclusive grant and monopolistic in its nature, and its exploitation is historically been exempt from free trade laws in many countries. Amendments have been made to copyright acts around the world to permit limited forms of parallel importation and there has always been the exemption of importation for personal use. It is a balancing act of rights, and often not a particularly happy for consumers.

 

[Harry Callaghan]

I personally didn't really mind about the region coding when I got my Sony DVD player. That was until I found out about the Terminator 2 Ultimate Edition dvd. I read reviews for the region 1 disc and decided I had to have it. But no matter where I searched I could not find a region 4 copy. Then my friends at dvdusergroup.com.au confirmed for me that the distribution rights for region 4 were never picked up.

I could pay to 'chip' my DVD player but I don't want to mess with the player. As a consumer I find it annoying that because I live in a different region, I cannot pick up the dvd that has the best audio and visual representation of a movie I would love to have in my collection. Another example is that we do not have access to the DTS version of Saving Private Ryan (although could it really be better than the DD one). In instances like this, region coding does some consumers a dis-service.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Except for Buffy where I thought you promised to only buy R1 product?

Hey, Mr. Staddon kept his end, I have to keep mine

However I made NO such promise about Angel, for which the wait is getting MIGHTY annoying. I wish we could just get a "No Angel till 2004 for you!" instead of hanging, but such is life

 

[John_Berger]

I would love to make my player region-free without the need to get out the soldering gun. (My wife would not appreciate having me yell, "Honey, uh, we need to get a new one now!"
The problem with regions is that (A) they don't work, (B) they prevent us from importing movies which as far as I know is still a legal action, and (C) it goes under the assumption that a DVD released before a movie theater release will destroy the theatrical audience numbers.
With respect to that last one, I have a serious problem with their mindset.
First off, this can only be a real concern if EVERY SINGLE PERSON in the world has a DVD player. They do not. The majority of people either have VCRs or no such entertainment device at all. These people will end up going to the theater anyway if a movie is released on DVD.
Second, they are assuming that just because you have a DVD means automatically and unequivocably that you won't see it in theaters. I have a difficult time thinking that someone with a 27" TV and a DVD player would prefer that to seeing a movie at least once in a true theatrical setting, particularly with a 2.35:1 movie. What about Lord of the Rings? Even if I have all of the DVDs come 2004, if a local theater offers an all-day LotR event I know that I'll be there as will other members of my family.
Now, I'm not naive. I fully realize that not everyone has the same mindset that I do and that some people actually will use the DVD as an excuse to not go to the theater. But I find it hard to believe that it would be as detrimental as the studios would think.
But this also begs the question ... it is really THAT difficult to have simultaneous or near-simultaneous releases of movies throughout the world?

 

[Bjorn Olav Nyberg]

The main reason why distributors tend to wait before releasing a movie in a second territory, is that they want to wait and see if the movie become popular in the territory it is first released. If it does not do very much business, they can decide to go straight to home video, or not release it at all.

 

[John_Berger]

If it does not do very much business, they can decide to go straight to home video, or not release it at all.

I can understand that, but to an extent that's a silly excuse if indeed that is what they are going by. It's generally accepted that the movie tastes in one country can be different than another. Just because a movie bombs in one area doesn't mean that it will do the same all over.

And what's ironic is that if it doesn't do well and goes straight to video, they'll probably region code it anyway thus further limiting its distribution to areas where the movie might do well!

 

[Ted Todorov]

However when you play film sourced DVD's then you will get the same result (in temporal terms) as if you played an NTSC disc on the machine as DVD's of films are normally encoded at 24fps regardless of the final playout standard. The only thing the Malata must do in this case is perform a simple spatial scaling job to reduce a 720x576 frame to 720x480.

I don't want to drag this off topic, but I thought that ALL PAL material, including film, was on DVD at 25fps, thus the dreaded PAL speed-up that the legions of HTFers who apparently have perfect pitch are always complaining about. If PAL film DVDs were at 24fps, there would be no such speed-up -- and even if you can't hear it, clearly it does exist. Just look at the 4% difference in running times between PAL & NTSC.

Ted

 

[Bjorn Olav Nyberg]

Ted,
I have more or less given up trying to understand the technical side of it, but as I have understood the framerate of the film source decides whether it must be speeded up to match the number of frames per second in PAL. Things shot specifically for PAL television etc does not have speed up problems.