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Bass Crossover on a Sony SCD-CE 775 ? (1 Viewer)

Matt Heebner

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I tried searching for this, but wasn't getting any luck. Anyways, anyone know what the crossover is set for in this player with speakers set at small with a subwoofer, and with speakers set to large with a subwoofer.
I am running Paradigm Titans all around with a Velo CT-150 sub. I am comparing these two settings to see which sounds best, but would like to know where the Sony has the crossover set.

Thanks
Matt
 

KeithH

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Matt, I think Jack is right. From everything I have read, the Sony SACD players have a fixed crossover at 120 Hz. That's way too high, but high fixed crossovers are nothing new, especially on receivers. :frowning:
 

Jack Gilvey

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Yeah, it's high, but it's worked ok for me on SACD since my sub is basically in the same plane as my front speakers and not too far to one side. My dipole sub is linear well past that point, also, so break-up models are not an issue.
 

Rich Malloy

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IMO, utilizing the bass management feature results in a reduction of resolution. I'm not sure how this is technically handled by the player (DSD>PCM conversion?), but my ears tell me it corrupts the sound quality and so I've never used it on my C555ES. The 120Hz crossover is certainly inapt for all but the lamest home-theater-in-a-box systems, but that's the least of the problems with the onboard bass management IMO.

I bought an Outlaw ICBM-1.
 

Matt Heebner

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So even with the speakers set to LARGE + SUB the crossover is 120? Or are you just talking about the speakers set to small that it's at 120?

I tried some listening tests with it set both ways and with them set to 5 LARGE + SUB there is way more bass info going to the Titans, with only the very low going to the sub. At moderate levels this might be fine as the Titans have a low end of 50 hz (supposedly) but I could see this taxing them at higher levels. I also think that it sounded better, more open. Hard to describe it, almost like it has "bigger" sound than when I had it set as 5 SMALL + SUB, but it was definitely better sounding to my ears.

Man I can't wait till I get new speakers...Studio 40's.


Matt
 

AaronBatiuk

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So even with the speakers set to LARGE + SUB the crossover is 120? Or are you just talking about the speakers set to small that it's at 120?
No, I think that with the speakers set to "large", there is no bass redirection away from them at all.

The 5 Large + Sub option is exactly the same as the DSD Direct option, with the notable exceptiont that the former allows you to adjust the channel levels (through Sony's so-called DSD DSP) but the latter does not. My new receiver (Sony 4ES) applies my channel level settings to the multi-channel inputs, but my older Sony receiver that the 4ES replaced did not. I can now use the DSD Direct option instead of running the signal through the DSD DSP.
 

Rich Malloy

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The 5 Large + Sub option is exactly the same as the DSD Direct option
Not on my C555ES.

I'll repeat it again until someone contradicts me: using the onboard bass management corrupts the hi-res signal. If you engage it, you're not hearing the full fidelity of the disc. And it's NOT just the 120Hz crossover. I hear this corruption even on the "5 Large + Sub" bass management setting.

Can I prove this by reference to how the onboard bass management functions? No. I haven't the technical expertise. But this is what my ears tell me. Are any of you saying you can't hear the difference between "Multichannel Direct" (that is, no bass management) and "5 Large + Sub" (which does go through the onboard bm circuitry)? Have you carefully listened to some high quality recordings, switching back and forth between the two settings?

If not, please do. I'd like to know if my experience differs from yours. And since resolving my bass management issues required an additional $200 cost for an Outlaw ICBM-1, I think this is important info for anyone considering the purchase of a SACD player (or, for that matter, a DVD-A player).
 

AaronBatiuk

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Are any of you saying you can't hear the difference between "Multichannel Direct" (that is, no bass management) and "5 Large + Sub" (which does go through the onboard bm circuitry)?
Rich, allow me to clarify my statement above. Read it as: The "5 Large + Sub" option is intended for the same speaker arrangement as the "DSD Direct" option, i.e. five full-range speakers plus a subwoofer.

I did go on to say, "...with the notable exceptiont that the former allows you to adjust the channel levels (through Sony's so-called DSD DSP) but the latter does not.". So, the "5 Large + Sub" option does go through the DSD DSP. This does alter the signal. This can have a negative impact on sound quality. I don't claim to hear a difference; I don't even claim to have done any testing to determine if I can hear a difference. In fact, I use the DSD Direct option specifically because of your comments in another thread, where you stated that any other setting degrades the sound. I don't feel that I need to use the bass management, so I do not use it. Whether BM degrades the sound or not is a moot point for me for that reason.
 

Rich Malloy

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Aaron, I keep bringing this up - yes, over and over - in the hopes that someone will contradict or confirm what I'm saying!

I hope you don't simply take my word for it. I trust my ears, but only so far. I'm really fishing for some confirmation or contradiction on this point, and am endlessly amazed that I can't seem to drum any up! I am, after all, calling into question the very efficacy of the bass management offered on these players, and suggesting that, unless you have itty-bitty crappy speakers, you'll wanna side-step the bass management circuitry as though it were just so much plague-infested dung.

(Yes, there's the ol' hyperbole again!) :b

I've resolved my bass management issues with the aid of an ICBM-1, the time alignment issues through careful equidistant placement of speakers, but am unable to perfectly dial in the levels without using the (IMO) resolution-lowering circuitry of my player. Two out of three ain't bad, and when I compared a level-calibrated "5 large + sub" setting against the "Multichannel Direct", I detected little difference between the channel-levels despite having to increase the center and rear levels by a db or 2 for perfect level-matching in the "5 Large + Sub" setting. So, I feel I'm close, real close, to perfectly dialing it in... but I ain't quite there, can't get there, and had to purchase a $200 accessory and rearrange my speakers* to get as far as I have.

*Rearranging my speakers to the ITU Standard rather than the Dolby Labs standard also improved the reproduction of DVD soundtracks, though I hasten to add that I use monopole rear channel speakers. Unless you're using dipole surrounds, I would not recommend the dolby labs setup.
 

John Geelan

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I also use an ICBM with my 775 and it does work very well.

I leave the 775 on Multi Direct and let the ICBM do the bass management.

I also use the ICBM with my DVDA player (Panny RP91).
 

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