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Babylon 5: season 2 news (1 Viewer)

Joseph DeMartino

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One other question, though, that hasn't been answered yet (unless I missed it): how long will the "lost elements/need to intercut 4x3 material" last?
For the entire series. The CGI was always rendered at 1.33:1 (mostly because the systems in use at the time didn't allow them to do anything else, but even if they had, the time pressure of weekly television would likely have made it difficult to render them at a full 1.77:1. Several episodes were finished only hours before they had to be uplinked to the satellite as it was.) That includes CGI/live action composites.
The "lost files" is a bit of a red-herring because there was never much chance that Warner Bros. was going to pony-up to completely re-compose and re-render all of CGI and composite shots. But it is true that now they don't even have the option, because the original CGI computer models and backgrounds were all mistakenly discarded by Warner Bros. (The FX companies that created them were required, by contract, to turn over all their back-up files of the B5 material when they finished work on the show, then delete their own copies. So the discarded Warner copies were the only ones that existed. Re-doing the CGI now would mean recreating it all from scratch.)
The irony is that much of the trouble with the DVD version is the result of the technology moving faster than everyone anticipated. In 1992 everyone knew that there was this thing called HDTV in the works, but it was ill-defined. The decision was made to "future proof" the show by shooting in Super35 with an eventual widescreen version in mind.
JMS also always looked forward to a widescreen laserdisc version. That would, of course, have been letterboxed. Nobody knew from 16:9-enhanced at the time. A straight letterbox transfer would not have been nearly as much of a problem, since everything would just be cropped - the CGI/Composite scenes from the 1.33:1 originals, the rest of the show from the oversized Super35 frame. Pretty much every shot was composed with this in mind anyway, so it wouldn't have been a terribly big deal.*
The problem is the anamorphic process. That makes the live action look great, but requires blowing up and cropping the CGI. However, I submit the following for consideration:
If the show had been done in straight letterbox, those of us with widescreen TVs would have to zoom the entire episodes with the concomitent lost in quality. The CGI/composite material would not look noticeably better in that case than it does now, and the live action (which is 85% of the show) would look worse. Anything they did with the show in terms of widescreen was going to be a compromise, because they didn't have the foreknowledge, the technology, the time or the money to anticipate the best way to prep for an eventual widescreen release. But they always shot the show with such a release in mind, and - as JMS has said - always cheated towards the widescreen when there was a problem getting both versions composed for the same shot. I'm happy to have the meat of the series looking as good as it can. I never watched it for the FX anyway.
Regards,
Joe
* Being human, they screwed up sometimes. There is a single shot in both the R1 and R2 versions, lasting only a few seconds, where the 1.33:1 version is simply "stretched" horizontally because the composition made it impossible to crop. The shot comes in "Survivors" when Garibaldi is entering the casino to talk with Londo. As he crosses the room, at the back of the shot, there are some people playing a holographic fighting game in the foreground. Jerry Doyle's head is too close to the top of the frame to be cropped - you wouldn't be able to recognize him with the top of his head cut off, and you'd lose the character the scene is about. But they couldn't crop the bottom without losing that expensive holographic game shot. So they cheated.
 

Greg_S_H

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Okay, that all makes sense. I'd definitely rather the overall image look good than to go the non-anamorphic letterbox route just to accomodate the FX shots.
 

Max Leung

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Sorry if I ruffled any feathers. I did know that all the live-action was composed for the higher aspect-ratio. The DVD transfer of the pure CGI elements isn't the best, but doesn't detract from the story -- yet! I'd hate to see blotchy battlefleets with smeary explosions when season 4 rolls around. :)
Here's a thought: Even though WB lost all the CGI definition files and backups, and likely sold off the classic Amiga computers (but I do have a 68030 Amiga 2000 kicking around in mint condition), I wouldn't be surprised if a few enterprising fans redid the CGI space shots. Fan-rendering!
It wouldn't be too difficult, technically, to do this, given that older games like Wing Commander and Freespace were all rendered in real-time.
Artistically is another matter. :D
 

SpenceJT

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They need to speed up these release dates.
While I would love to see a more aggressive release schedule, I would like the series to be represented with all possible glory and extras!
Paramount had all of the Next Generation DVD sets "in the can" when the announcement was made of their release. Warner Brothers did not have this luxury. In order to include the value-added content (commentaries, behind the scenes documentaries, etc.) that we all want, we will have to sacrifice some time.
We must remember this and try (as hard as it may be) to be patient.
Remember, it could always be worse! ...we could be waiting for the seasonal releases of StarGate SG-1! ;)
Be seeing you,
Spence
 

Philip Verdieck

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They have speeded up the release dates, as noted in the 1st post. I think we were originally looking at end of 2004, or beginning of 2005 for season 5.
 

Aaron_Brez

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There's more than one. They did the same thing in "The War Prayer" when Vir's cousin is attacked, because there was an electrical effect they wanted to preserve.

I personally would rather they had cropped the "expensive" game shot, since it wasn't germane to the action. Stretching the picture is more disturbing to me visually.
 

Aaron_Brez

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Yeah, but how can we trust you to be sufficiently anal? You didn't even notice the blue lines in Downbelow!!!
;)
(yes, I know some people say they can see them on their original tapes. even if that's true, it doesn't change the fact that they're there...)
 

Jack_F

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With all these aspect ratio screw ups, I almost wish they would just use 1.33:1 for everything and leave it at that.

It's such a shame, they knew enough to shoot in 1.78:1 but apparently keeping the CGI files and keeping your original shots after you cut it to 1.33:1 for TV is too difficult for them.

All the 1.78:1 live action shots look amazing, as good as the Sopranos or 24. Then whenever you have a special effect, either 100% CGI or effects on top of live action, you get this really terrible image. It's very distacting.

It really takes away from the experience, in my opinion.

-Jack
 

TimSniffin

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With all these aspect ratio screw ups, I almost wish they would just use 1.33:1 for everything and leave it at that.
It's such a shame, they knew enough to shoot in 1.78:1 but apparently keeping the CGI files and keeping your original shots after you cut it to 1.33:1 for TV is too difficult for them.
They didn't render the CGI in 1:78:1. As Joe said, they rendered it in 1:33:1 and always planned to crop it for letterbox (which is why the composition of most of the special effects doesn't suffer). It's like shooting open matte and cropping for the theater. The problem is that 16x9 didn't exist at the time the show was made, and the end result is that the shots also had to be blown up in addition to cropped. The live action shots were the ones shot in Super35, and they're in their proper aspect ratio on the DVD (i.e., not cropped)
Also, keeping the original files wouldn't have helped--even with them, rerendering the sfx shots would have been way too costly for Warners.
Personally, I think some of the CGI shots look bad, but to be honest, many of them always looked bad--we just didn't notice so much because video tape and basic cable doesn't have the same resolution as DVDs. It wasn't only the beginning of the Third Age, but it was the beginning of CGI, and Babylon 5 used nothing but on a budget much smaller than the Star Trek shows. It's like the bad matte shot in My Favorite Year....always there, but just really obvious now thanks to advanced technology. Doesn't really detract from the story being told for me, but then again, I'm used to watching older movies with really bad special effects.
 

Joseph DeMartino

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(yes, I know some people say they can see them on their original tapes. even if that's true, it doesn't change the fact that they're there...)
They may be there, in the original film, but that doesn't mean that they're visible on all player and TV combos. I went back and watched that sequence several times on my set up. I didn't miss those lines, I didn't see them because they don't show up on my system. And others have had the same experience. (Including as least one fan who saw them on his TV but not when he played the same disc on his PC.)

In my opinion that difference between the CGI/Composite shots and the live action doesn't affect the experience at all. Bring on season two.

Regards,

Joe
 

Paul McElligott

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Personally, I think some of the CGI shots look bad, but to be honest, many of them always looked bad
One thing to remember is that they changed their CGI technology between the first and second seasons and progressively upgraded. Even on VHS, the second season effects always looked much better than the first.

If I recall, there are actually three different FX 'eras' in B5:

Season 1: Foundation Imaging using Amiga-based Video Toaster.

Seasons 2 & 3: Foundation Imaging using PC based Lightwave.

Seasons 4 & 5: Netter Digital, also using lightwave.



Don't write off the whole series because of the first season. It gets better, in more ways than one.
 

Robert Floto

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If I recall, there are actually three different FX 'eras' in B5:
Season 1: Foundation Imaging using Amiga-based Video Toaster.
Seasons 2 & 3: Foundation Imaging using PC based Lightwave.
Seasons 4 & 5: Netter Digital, also using lightwave.
Correct! But remember that the Amiga-based Video Toaster included the first version of Lightwave 3D. So all the CGI on B5 since the beginning was Lightwave, but improvements and plugins in that constantly upgraded software (along with the animators becoming more adept with its use) resulted in better animations as the series progressed.
Having started out as a Lightwave animator at around this same time (yes, I started out on the Amiga), I was more impressed with the fact that these effects were coming from Ron Thornton...a man started out on the effects-challenged Dr. Who.
 

Jeremy Conrad

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Box Set Color: Blue
Box Art: Sheridan in the foreground and Garibaldi, Delenn, Talia and Ivanova in the background. Narn batle ship in the foreground.
 

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